Arifureta Posted May 12, 2010 Posted May 12, 2010 Actually without IB most characters can't interrupt the followup. I think the best Rachel could do without IB is poooossibly a 5A, but most likely a 2C. I dunno. Many things poke me out of it, Haku 5A and Lambda 6A being some of them (and then 6A into air combo ). I think you overestimate the capability of the chains. I mean they're good, I'm not saying they're not, but they're totally unsafe if you reel yourself in on block. Next time you get the chance you can try it out. Like, just poke him. It'll hit. :V Feels like a race vs time mostly. Hazama gains exponential advantage having after 50%/100% heat, while Rachel has to force her way in before he does get that. Most of the time the match direction is already decided on who lands the first meaty hit or knockdown of the round, and the first most likely to do so is Hazama due to his more flexible design. This for sure, which is why uber turtling + godlike zoning is legit for Rachel. Burns down the time while also keeping Hazama's heat gain relatively slow.
Dacidbro Posted May 12, 2010 Posted May 12, 2010 Generally Rachel can float around waiting for Hazama to miss a chain then summon pumpkin/lob to cover more chains/ chain followup trajectories. Sort of like the anti-Sagat/fireball strat in streetfighter. Fighting head on in zoning = Rachel lose, most definitely, but its not like Hazama gains anything from zoning with chains if all you're doing is jumping around with barrier. Hazama has only Jakou/qcb+d~b to force air barrier which are easy enough to see coming. I feel it is easier for Rachel to wait till Hazama messes up chain zoning than Lambda messing up sword pressure. Hazama has nothing similar to her ground spike summons that eat primers or force certain movement that makes Rachel commit to jumps etc. Rachel has stronger close up offense/defense options than Hazama till he gains gauge for houtenjin. Houtenjin is strong but not something you can throw out safely till he has 100% meter plus its not easy to super someone who knows you have the option. However still a valid strong move that tilts the scales when Hazama does get the meter. Hazama gains meter like a slut. Disadvantage to Rachel mid-round when she's down 50% health and Hazama has the possible full meter. Have lost many matches with full meter when Hazama busts out a half life damage 100% heat combo just because a mistake was made on my part. Feels like a race vs time mostly. Hazama gains exponential advantage having after 50%/100% heat, while Rachel has to force her way in before he does get that. Most of the time the match direction is already decided on who lands the first meaty hit or knockdown of the round, and the first most likely to do so is Hazama due to his more flexible design. I suppose the Japanese feel its pretty even since Rachel actually has pretty decent pokes against Hazama once you get past the chains. The use of Houtenjin is pretty much a shotgun/ double-edged sword option so it shouldn't factor too strongly in a matchup chart. If all you are doing is jumping around with barrier, he will hit you before you hit him, so yes, he does gain something from that. That's an oversimplification of what I was saying. If any character literally jumps around holding barrier they will always lose. Since you and I both know that is never what you do, we can erase that argument completely. Besides, even if that was Rachel's best defensive option, Hazama would gain meter just for slamming on her stupid barrier with chains, over and over. Hazama's meter gain is pretty phenomenal, yeah. And then his meter use is near infinitely better than Rachel's, on average. If Rachel forces her way in, what does she gain? If the Hazama is intelligent, he should save 50 meter for jayakou counter, which makes the already questionable pressure Rachel has even more insignificant, as even if she successfully mixes Hazama up 3 or 4 times, he can level the playing field with one IB reversal. Also, I feel Hazama's pokes are much stronger than Rachel's. Maybe that's just because of the way Bang functions, but Hazama's 5B seems much better and more rewarding than most of Rachel's close range poke options. And again, smart hotenjin should definitely factor largely. Zakiyama makes Hazama look even with Ragna and Bang with how well he uses his meter on hotenjin alone. The key is not yomi hotenjin, IB hotenjin reaction, so your opponent actually has to successfully yomi YOU to avoid dieing, rather than the reverse.
Alex073088 Posted May 12, 2010 Posted May 12, 2010 you guys should be posting alot of this stuff in teh rachel vs hazama cs thread ^.^. There's alot of really useful information in every single post.
Dacidbro Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Last time I tried to post useful advice in the rachel threads I got stampeded by people who didn't take the time to understand my posts. You were probably one of them.
sanshiki Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 If all you are doing is jumping around with barrier, he will hit you before you hit him, so yes, he does gain something from that. That's an oversimplification of what I was saying. If any character literally jumps around holding barrier they will always lose. Since you and I both know that is never what you do, we can erase that argument completely. Besides, even if that was Rachel's best defensive option, Hazama would gain meter just for slamming on her stupid barrier with chains, over and over. Hazama's meter gain is pretty phenomenal, yeah. And then his meter use is near infinitely better than Rachel's, on average. If Rachel forces her way in, what does she gain? If the Hazama is intelligent, he should save 50 meter for jayakou counter, which makes the already questionable pressure Rachel has even more insignificant, as even if she successfully mixes Hazama up 3 or 4 times, he can level the playing field with one IB reversal. Also, I feel Hazama's pokes are much stronger than Rachel's. Maybe that's just because of the way Bang functions, but Hazama's 5B seems much better and more rewarding than most of Rachel's close range poke options. And again, smart hotenjin should definitely factor largely. Zakiyama makes Hazama look even with Ragna and Bang with how well he uses his meter on hotenjin alone. The key is not yomi hotenjin, IB hotenjin reaction, so your opponent actually has to successfully yomi YOU to avoid dieing, rather than the reverse. "Since you and I both know that is never what you do, we can erase that argument completely" I meant that in a neutral situation chains are useless to break guard. Perhaps its clearer that way. Rachel can do whatever she wants as long as she does it on reaction to Hazama's movements. I did overexaggerate the jump around with barrier bit; I wanted to imply that it also means that jumping past chain zoning and going into midrange/melee range was one of her options. "If Rachel forces her way in, what does she gain?" I hope that is a rhetorical question. On a match when Rachel's down hp-wise: If Rachel loses by initiating zoning from afar, there is everything to gain from closing in to threaten an infight. It is risky but its her only chance. Hazama has the advantage for zoning and its easier for him to counter blatant summons than hitting pre-emptive chains on Rachel. There are ways for Rachel to handle IB Houtenjin anyway: IB safe strings, Cat chair, jump cancelling, wait for super flash RC. When your entire gameplan hinges on throwing out a super and hoping it hits, which is the basis of all reversal supers, its such shaky play that even semi-decent players can bait it. It can be hard to see why Hazama's melee/footsie moveset is on par or weaker than Rachel's. I would simply say that Rachel's 5B and A lobelia has very reliable hitboxes. They have fairly even startups on their normals but Rachel simply outpokes him. Hazama's 5B has the same startup as Rachel's but it is alot more awkward to use since he is vulnerable while sticking his knee out. Shoulder to shoulder range, they each have 5 frame 5As, 6 frame 2As, so its really alot more even for the close up Rachel/Hazama game. "And again, smart hotenjin should definitely factor largely. Zakiyama makes Hazama look even with Ragna and Bang with how well he uses his meter on hotenjin alone. The key is not yomi hotenjin, IB hotenjin reaction, so your opponent actually has to successfully yomi YOU to avoid dieing, rather than the reverse." IB houtenjin always works if the opponent doesn't wise up to the fact that his 5B>5C string is FREE. IB houtenjin is a tactic that works in two situations: against good players who got caught out trying to mix up baits for houtenjin (ie. If they never throw anything that can be supered anyway, Hazama can just reset the situation by poking back or jumping out), or scrubs who are free. In high level play, the smart IB houtenjin is Hazama's Ace move, but like all aces, not a spammable thing. Treat it with the same abare as Tager's 720, just with different nuances in effective range and properties. I just have a problem with the way you put it that if it factored so well, everyone should play Hazama for free EZ supers.
Alex073088 Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Last time I tried to post useful advice in the rachel threads I got stampeded by people who didn't take the time to understand my posts. You were probably one of them. dude just try and be a little bit more nicer when you post. If there's something that you dont agree with just write in a calm manner. When suggest that people have no idea of what they are talking about, its hard for people to want to listen to you. In these last couple of post with hazama vs rachel everyone has made incredibly valid points. But you also mentioned rachel's resources versus hazama's(her wind), where others didnt and you were absoutley correct. Im sorry if i made you feel as though u werent being listened to or understood.
PhantomX Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Yeah, but you could post in the Hazama boards. We're cool peeps. 5B and 5A are both great pokes on our end, and 5B can hit people out of quite a few things, and is exceedingly easy to hitconfirm as well. Best part of IB Jayoku is that the BnB after it sets us up with almost another DD :D I will reiterate though. Our chains are extremely unsafe even on regular block. I'm pretty sure everyone can jab spam us out of it on pull-in if they blocked, with others having more deadly options.
Arifureta Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 It can be hard to see why Hazama's melee/footsie moveset is on par or weaker than Rachel's. I would simply say that Rachel's 5B and A lobelia has very reliable hitboxes. They have fairly even startups on their normals but Rachel simply outpokes him. Hazama's 5B has the same startup as Rachel's but it is alot more awkward to use since he is vulnerable while sticking his knee out. Shoulder to shoulder range, they each have 5 frame 5As, 6 frame 2As, so its really alot more even for the close up Rachel/Hazama game. Keep in mind though that if Hazama is that close to Hime-sama, he's not going for 5B. He might go for 2A, but odds are he'll run away. He might go for a (weak) mixup but, again, it's better for him to high jump away and then 6D to try a hit confirm, which, if she tries to go for a lobelia, would probably hit her. Hazama is a hit-and-run character. He's not going to commit to something he knows is dangerous. Or at least he shouldn't.
smooshman Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Hazama is a hit-and-run character. He's not going to commit to something he knows is dangerous. Or at least he shouldn't. you need to watch Buppa fight.... it's sexy and scary...
Fireryda Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Again, if Hazama commits to a direction then there's no way he can cancel it, so if he haphazardly decides to fly in on a blocked/whiffed chainhit then odds are he'll eat a lobelia or an anti-air. C won't do him any good if it's the short-range lobelia since he'll still be right in her face to eat an anti-air/poke. And while 2D~9B does launch him all the way across and makes it hard for Rachel to hit him with the lightning, the trajectory is very predictable since you know he's going to land in the corner, and so just wait for it and hit him out with the anti-air. Or, you know, just run across the other side of the screen when he does it. :V He gets two reel-ins per reset so he can't fly up really high otherwise the next one won't connect. And if he does aim a chain up, a simple lobelia to it would stop him. Plus, again, anytime Hazama goes way up in the air gives Hime-sama the time to run across to the other side. Or she could just wind him for added RAGE factor. Well.. Yeah it's a pretty stupid thing and I'm suprised it works so well Hazama can jump cancel his B and D followups when he's about half the distance or just do an empty jump in. If rachel tries to wind out and crosses up he can just jump cancel which turns him around, fire a chain the other way and chase after her. She can't run away forever with that wind of hers. Houtenjin is strong but not something you can throw out safely till he has 100% meter plus its not easy to super someone who knows you have the option. However still a valid strong move that tilts the scales when Hazama does get the meter Jayoku can be combo'd into and it still does a respectable amount of damage and even more if near the wall. ~4k midscreen and with 100% meter that can easily reach ~6k so it's not just a reversal. afaik like every other character, if Rachel eats a Jayoku and Hazama goes for a 6DAxN follow up there's nothing she can do about it except tank the damage It can be hard to see why Hazama's melee/footsie moveset is on par or weaker than Rachel's. I would simply say that Rachel's 5B and A lobelia has very reliable hitboxes. They have fairly even startups on their normals but Rachel simply outpokes him. Hazama's 5B has the same startup as Rachel's but it is alot more awkward to use since he is vulnerable while sticking his knee out. Shoulder to shoulder range, they each have 5 frame 5As, 6 frame 2As, so its really alot more even for the close up Rachel/Hazama game. Gonna have to agree with you on this. It's alot more even here. While Hazama does have alot of good pokes I find they're not as reliable against Rachel for some reason. Hazama's 3C works wonders with it's massive range and being a staple move for his BnB's but there's not much he can do if its blocked except go on the defensive or get back in on her which is a bit risky. imo whoever is on the offensive has the advantage as Rachel has quite a few attacks which stops Hazama from hitting back effectively. Keep in mind though that if Hazama is that close to Hime-sama, he's not going for 5B. He might go for 2A, but odds are he'll run away. He might go for a (weak) mixup but, again, it's better for him to high jump away and then 6D to try a hit confirm, which, if she tries to go for a lobelia, would probably hit her. It's alot easier to just block everything until he's out of range then guess the mix-up since Hazama doesn't really have many good over-head options. 214D~A is good but theres not much you can do off that except build lots of meter for Jayoku Pretty sure that after getting out of pressure range and jumping back +6d, even on a counter hit the hitstun would be non-existant so it would be a bit risky going in again. Does cancel out lobelia so thats a good thing. But yeah I can kinda see how it's a 5-5 matchup since Rachel can keep him out easier than other characters.
PhantomX Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Buppa really shouldn't be getting away with so many Ressengas. People can jab you out of those... but I guess he just scares people since he's Buppa, lol. Zakiyama is much better with Jayoku, imo. Also, one of Jayoku's strengths is its versatility as it can pretty much be thrown in during whatever combo and then lead to meter build or even in reaction to something slow and committed that the opponent is doing, it doesn't just need to be used as a reversal after IB.
Spirit Juice Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Last time I tried to post useful advice in the rachel threads I got stampeded by people who didn't take the time to understand my posts. No one cares what a Bang player has to say. About anything.
smooshman Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Buppa really shouldn't be getting away with so many Ressengas. People can jab you out of those... but I guess he just scares people since he's Buppa, lol. Zakiyama is much better with Jayoku, imo. Buppa pulls off so many of Ressengas because under pressure most sane people play it safe, it breaks down in steps: you're in block stun you see the attack have to react now you have to attack with something with the proper range and frames this scares most people from attacking on good pressure I disagree and say Buppa does Jayoku better.... maybe because he does it alot(xN) for offense more than defense and it's so sexy:kitty:
Arifureta Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 you need to watch Buppa fight.... it's sexy and scary... So unsafe though. I mean, I understand the logic; used to happen to me with Noel with her 6C (I think. The overhead) 3C crossup a lot too. A poke beats it but then I never did use one. Too scared for some reason. But yeah, eventually, you do poke out though. And the startup to Hazama's overhead is reactionably long. I feel like it's probably because he's a relatively new character that he can get away with all of these. Once everyone gets used to it though... Zakiyama has crazy IB skills but Buzama has style. RCs all day and wastes heat like crazy. :V Except he's Hazama so one BnB brings it all back.
Dacidbro Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 No one cares what a Bang player has to say. About anything. You play ragnaaaaaaaa As for Hazama chain pulling, you're right, I somehow attributed a hit being a combo to also a block being pressure. My bad. Jayakou is still godlike reversal with IB. fo real. 6k off a reversal is damn sexy when your opponent has to yomi you not to get hit by it.
Spirit Juice Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 You play ragnaaaaaaaa Hey shut up! I have to think slightly more than you do when playing.
PhantomX Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Yeah! Spirit Juice has to rapid cancel sometimes! Also, what do yomi and oki mean, exactly? Some people like to use those words a lot (read: Dacidbro), so I guess I should know what they are.
Master Bigode Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Also, what do yomi and oki mean, exactly? Some people like to use those words a lot (read: Dacidbro), so I guess I should know what they are. "Reading the mind of your opponent" and wake up game, respectively.
Dacidbro Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 Hey shut up! I have to think slightly more than you do when playing. Both S tier, but one always has meter and everything becomes the same combo hmm But seriously, there are a hundred arguments for either being "less thought based", but there's no way you're thinking harder than I am.. I'm the Dacidbro, who did you think you were talking to.
PhantomX Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 "Reading the mind of your opponent" and wake up game, respectively. Ah, ok... I've always referred to those as "hard reads" and techchasing, haha. The Japanese words are shorter.
SimpleKiss Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 But then doesn't spamming fireballs count as extreme punishing? I mean, there's like nothing they can do about it right? If we're using the traditional fighting game term of "punish." Then no. Akuma isn't punishing the opponent for using an unsafe move and using the opening to do damage. He's just throwing air fireballs because half the cast cant' do anything but block. If you mean the more direct dictionary translation of punishment... it still doesn't fit really. Because you're not punishing anything. Akuma is acting with air fireballs, the opponent has to react with something. But most opponents have nothing to react with. so they end up just blocking because it's all they can do. Punish is more of a "I act, I did something unsafe. He reacted and punished my unsafe move."
huey253 Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 lol ragna are they too far away on the ground during berial edge combo? 6A or 5C are they too far away in the air during berial edge combo? JB or JC do i have enough heat to RC? always
ZONG_one Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 lol ragna are they too far away on the ground during berial edge combo? 6A or 5C are they too far away in the air during berial edge combo? JB or JC do i have enough heat to RC? always You forgot. INFERNO DIVIDAHHHH.
huey253 Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 yeah am i confused by opponent's blockstring? Yes INFERNO DIVIDER what should i poke with? 5B or 5B? am i almost dead yet? Yes BLOODKAIN
FlyingVe Posted May 13, 2010 Posted May 13, 2010 ^^^ while this is funny and somewhat true, it was also true in CT where Ragna is mid tier. Ragna got a damage buff, but his real strength is in the fact that BE combos leave him at an advantage (whereas most CT combos blasted the opponent away), that along with the new 2C (+1 SD baby!) and meter gain, he's actually relatively safe. In short, Ragna hasn't changed much, but between a few buffs and the other character's nerfs, he leverages his already existing strengths much better. Also, Ragna is still a high risk player, lesser players will still get stomped because they can't manage the risk, and Ragna takes hits about as well as a pregnant schoolgirl.
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