redsilversnake Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 Ragna doesn't get 50+ from one bnb. His standard double BE combo gets him 58 meter.
-Ladon- Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 That's how you define BNB, any close-ranged normal of ragnas can lead into 50 meter, 22c oki, and around 3.5-4.5k damage depending on what starts it, which is technically bnb-level anything out of 3C-5D range won't net over 50 usually though His standard double BE combo gets him 53 meter. let's make sure we know the numbers though
watchutink Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 i thought the double BE only netted 53. Either way its still over 50
ZONG_one Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 I guess Double BE can be bnb. >.> So ragna nets 50% from OPTIMAL BnB. Don't get hit by 3C, 5D, or GH. My point about the irony remains, as it's still true.
MisterBadguy Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 The good thing about her j.2C is that it halts her momentum and that it clashes it damn near everything (from Hazama's chains to certain AA attacks). Agreed, in that respect it's really awesome. I have had situations where that hitbox change on startup has really saved my ass. Against Tager it's also very good at stopping colliders, especially if they try and suck you in. I HAVE done it during a collider tech trap and momentum shift sucked me to the ground, and the Tager player was like wtf, but I've never actually seen it beat collider. I'll give it a shot though. On topic: Haz's throw beats Daifunka. Too GDLK.
smooshman Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 Ragna has awesome meter gain. technically it's average..... in terms of character rating, but his damage and combo length are what make it better, same with hazama. The only characters with above average character ratings for meter are Jin (does this need an explaination?), and Noel (lol) and Haku has the lowest character rating.
Seifuuku Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 Ragna doesn't get 50+ from one bnb. I like how Person A always over exaggerates other characters' meter gain/options as an argument against Person B who is over exaggerating Person A's character's meter gain/options. Does no one sense that irony? 52~ heat off 5b, 43 heat off 2a, 50~ heat off 6a, 53~ heat off 6b, and pretty much always makes meter used for blood kain back+gains life of course, and 52 heat off his DP hazama's heat gain is around 30-45 for his combos, depending on the starter..
redsilversnake Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 let's make sure we know the numbers though Finishing it with ID will net exactly 58 meter.
-Ladon- Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 my mistake for thinking you'd be dumb enough to end with DID and not 22c
Mr.Biscuits Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 Can I get the "online play matchup chart"? :x
redsilversnake Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 my mistake for thinking you'd be dumb enough to end with DID and not 22c My mistake for not thinking you'd be dumb enough to assume you can get 22C as an ender in every combo.
Henaki Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 Can I get the "online play matchup chart"? :x s ragna a tager arakune z rachel
farranpoison Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 B- Makoto (3-5 bars) E- Makoto (lower than 3 bars)
smooshman Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 B- Makoto (3-5 bars) E- Makoto (lower than 3 bars) you mean Tsubaki?
farranpoison Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 you mean Tsubaki? Clever, I'll give you that.
HiagoX Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 s ragna a tager arakune z rachel S++ - Henaki's Tager
Zidane Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 Ok I actually had to make an account just because this post was... wow. His zoning and j.B are indeed good tools for him, but 3C should never be used as a poke. Any follow-up to it except 236D can be punished pretty easily. 3C is pretty unsafe if it whiffs, yeah. But you only throw it out in combos or if you know they'll block it. And seeing as how 3C can chain into stance besides 236D, I don't see how it's unsafe. If they block it and think they'll get a free punish, DP. If they see you stance and expect the DP, you wait and either go out of it or do overhead/low cause guess what... they're safe! And overhead catches jumping opponents so they either have to block, get hit or mash blindly. Houtenjin may be his best meter option, but it's hardly "the reversal of the century." It is one of the better reversals in the game, but not the best. As for 214D~B, you're really overblowing it. It's nowhere near as good as most other reversals. You can get decent damage off a counter hit (especially if Hazama's close to the corner), but if it's blocked, the opponent has enough time to rush in and poke. It's better as an anti-air, since the opponent has to barrier to block it (which, of course, gives more pushback) and can't do anything till they land, giving Hazama more time to zone them. Hotenjin isn't the best reversal in the game but it is top 5. 214DB isn't a great reversal but a great move in general. It's a DP that's safe on block against most of the cast and can lead into a 2-4K combo on CH with decent meter gain. Even on regular hit, Lvl 2 214DB can lead into Hotenjin for 3-5K damage. 623D isn't a good anti-air. Maybe if you react to an empty super jump, but other than that, 5A, 2C, and 214D~B are far better. He never said 623D was a great anti-air. Just that it was another usable anti-air, which it is. Not to mention that both of you forgot that 2A, 5B and 5C all anti-air extremely well too. Throwing out 214D~A in a blockstring is a terrible idea unless you've conditioned them. What the hell? Unless you're completely predictable about using stance moves, throwing out 214DA is stupidly good anytime. It's a safe overhead. It's a SAFE overhead. Lvl 2 even allows him pressure since it's +8. His mix-up is terrible. 6A is as easily blocked as any other overhead and can only be followed up by Jayoku, and his stance moves are easy to react to. As for his command grab, not only does it have the same limitations as Bang's, but it also prorates to hell (75-70%, I believe), so it shouldn't be relied on. IAD j.2C/j.B, though, is a good idea. You'll most likely cross them up and even if they block, you've essentially reset pressure. Tick throws...are universal, IIRC, so I see no reason to specify that for Hazama, seeing as his 5/2A isn't special. And this is where I decided I had to post. Hazama's mixup game is terrible. Cool. Time to go to the frame data! 6A is 22 frames ( about average overhead speed ) and -5 on block, meaning you either need a 5 frame poke or to IB it. Except if spaced right, your 5 frame poke will whiff if regular blocked, so you need to IB it every time to get a punish. And I don't see the problem with it only being able to combo into Hotenjin at all. 6B is a standing low, 25 frames, kinda slow. Except you see Hazama standing so you expect an overhead. Not to mention it's -2 on block, meaning you need to IB to get any sort of punish which won't happen if spaced correctly. Again, only leads to Hotenjin, don't see a problem with that. 214DA is 19 frames, +2 LVL 1, +8 LVL 2. Moves you forward. Don't even need to say anything else. 214DC is 19 frames, -3 LVL 1, -1 LVL 2. Need to IB LVL 1 and have a long range 5-6 frame poke; good luck punishing that! Hazama's command throw has the same limitations as Bangs... like.. being untechable? A good mixup option? Hazama's is faster by 1 frame, has invinciblity during command throw, deals about 2K damage on half the cast and nets Hazama 30-35% meter while the other half takes 2.7K ( which is A Tager Buster damage ) and gets 49-51% meter. Cut out "almost" and replace "above average" with "awesome," and this'll be the most the most accurate thing in your post. This is the only right part of the post pretty much. The person you did quote was completely right about why Hazama is top 3 though.
Mr.Biscuits Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 Hazama is obviously top 3. The majority of the people who don't think so are either A) Online exclusive players B) Never played a good Hazama (being able to do combos doesn't mean you're good) C) Only post on Dustloop If none of those apply to you and you still feel like he's not top 3 then make a valid argument to back it up.
XAQshinor Posted September 3, 2010 Posted September 3, 2010 Sure Zong just let me know whats up. i actually wanna visit west coast soon. on topic - Hazama is gdlk
mundus Posted September 4, 2010 Posted September 4, 2010 Wow, people overestimating Makoto. A lot. Actually, her damage output is pretty good even without the Parry Loop. With it, the output becomes shit crazy. Her damage is pretty sick even without the parry loop. I fought one online yesterday, in the corner, at least 6k from everything with meter. Midscreen 4k+ again he didn't do the parry loop once. LOL. I know right. That's all in the past Tager is...still terribad. I know this is somewhat scrubbish on both players parts but Gadget Finger might as well be renamed 'Summon DP'. With the exception of Ragna with 50 meter any DP is a free 720 or 360 if you except it. Not saying Gadget Finger is anything extraordinary, but if your opponent does DPs after it they in for a world of hurt. Hazama is obviously top 3. The majority of the people who don't think so are either A) Online exclusive players B) Never played a good Hazama (being able to do combos doesn't mean you're good) C) Only post on Dustloop If none of those apply to you and you still feel like he's not top 3 then make a valid argument to back it up. He is not top 3 since its clear that Arakune is better... Some might say Ragna and Hakumen also, but imo its Litchi, Bang and Arakune thats top 3 all S or maybe S- in Arakune's case, Hazama is A or A+ fighting for 4th spot with Hakumen, Ragna and Carl imo.
Leaf Posted September 4, 2010 Posted September 4, 2010 my mistake for thinking you'd be dumb enough to end with DID and not 22c I love when people try to be a wiseass only to make themselves look like a complete retard. Deductive reasoning is your friend, bro.
A3Religion Posted September 4, 2010 Posted September 4, 2010 Redsilversnake is looking pretty free right now. Damn, when you get Zidane to post on your stupidity, you really have to be fucking up. Thanks for again having to put another BB scrub in line. Back in my day when Dustloop was playing a balanced game, we humbled ourselves for a while before we started talking shit. Now you young haberdashers come around thinking you the shit because you beat three people in a row on-line.
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