BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[Zidane]

I had a long post but DL deleted it for no reason so to summarize:

1) D has shit blockstun by itself so I imagine the laser has to hit during the frames when you block the second hit and you're getting ready to punish it.

2) Just saw FlyingVe's post about -3. That means you have to IB the second hit to punish it with 2A/5A ( if your character's is fast enough ), which isn't that hard seeing as how the first hit is overhead and you know when the second is coming (Corrected by Spark), or just regular block and have a 0-3 frame move ( Tager Busters, etc ). Also Mu is not airborne while doing overhead so she can be thrown out of it.

3) Even though I think it's 6-4, this is coming from the Hazama player. The people that are mostly "complaining" in the Mu forum are the people I play every week. So while I can casually list why Hazama beats her with things like "no ground game, can't set up steins", that must really suck for the Mu player and it might feel like 6.5-3.5 or 7-3 or something. All I can say is it's atleast 6-4; it might be worse.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Minor correction, isn't Houtenjin 7 frames? Dunno why you said it was 0-3.

[Zidane]

I thought it was a 0 or 1 frame super that froze time and then him travelling to hit you is 7 frames.

[FlyingVe]

Frame data says:

Hotenjin - 6+1

360B - 6

720C - 5+0

Big Bang Smash might be fast enough, but I do not know the data on it.

Edit: Data says BBS is 11 frames? That doesn't sound right but whatever. I tested it, it is not fast enough to punish Mu's 6B.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Looking at the data, it's 6+1 startup, which is 6 frames before super freeze and 1 after.

[-Ladon-]

can't JH catch ragna's 2C on IB, which would make it activate faster than 4 frames yeah?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Um, no.

EDIT: To clarify, if Houtenjin DID punish an IBed 2C, then it would have to be 4 frames or less startup. However, it does not.

[Zidane]

Well TB / FlyingVe are right. Sorry about that / thanks guys

[Xie]

It doesn't seem like this has been brought up yet, but FYI, Mu-12 is actually relatively safe against Hazama in terms of Houtenjin.

Most of her normals are delay cancelable into Tsunugui or Omoikane. Case in point, even if Hazama instant blocks the second hit of 6B and tries to Houtenjin her, she can just cancel into either move and punish him on reaction.

Also FYI, Mu's 6B is completely air-tight into itself, even on instant block. The more you know~

[Synthesis]

It doesn't seem like this has been brought up yet, but FYI, Mu-12 is actually relatively safe against Hazama in terms of Houtenjin.

Most of her normals are delay cancelable into Tsunugui or Omoikane. Case in point, even if Hazama instant blocks the second hit of 6B and tries to Houtenjin her, she can just cancel into either move and punish him on reaction.

Also FYI, Mu's 6B is completely air-tight into itself, even on instant block. The more you know~

I thought that too but I don't know how viable that is. I usually use 2B, 623C, backdash or 5B after 6B. 623C to bait pokes but instant blocking the second hit of 6B can be used against them. Staggering it with other attacks after the first hit of 6B (specials, of course) can make pressure a little messier. I plan on messing with this to see if it's worthwhile.

I have a question though in response to JH on wakeup not being a threat. Mu pressures from a decent distance away on oki (5D 6D 5C/SoD). Does the 5D stop 214DB on wakeup? Since 214DB takes 7 frames to start up, I was wondering if this works. If it did, the only threat is JH, but could SoD be used to bait for it? I know Haz can jump out but SoD lvl1 recovers fast enough to do SoD (6D laser) short dash 5C into pressure. I was just wondering if SoD can be used to bait his JH by staggering the release. This is of course if he does a wakeup JH. Too much of a guessing game, eh?

[FlyingVe]

Depending on how you time your meaty you can often Kara-cancel your meaty during the super-flash fairly easily. 214DB is generally bad on wake-up unless the opponent is doing something obvious or slow.

[Xie]

Does the 5D stop 214DB on wakeup?

It can, but in the end, it won't be able to stop both the quick wake-up version and the neutral tech version in one go. Based on the stein timing, you'll really only be able to pick one of these options to punish, but if you time it correctly, it should be able to beat either one.

With that in mind, I think its best to alter stein timing to hit meaty vs neutral roll, and attempt a meaty attack to hit the quick-wake up to cover both options. This will prevent them from doing something silly like 5a/214d~b/236c.

If it did, the only threat is JH, but could SoD be used to bait for it?

I would say Furu no Tsurugi is a pretty bad option for baiting something, mostly because part of the slash is in her hitbox, and vs a houtenjin you might just trade or get hit by it instead of successfully baiting it. Especially since you have no true meaty attack going on, anything can happen.

Thus, I guess the optimal safe theory-fighter oki would be something like:

2b (whiffs against neutral tech), stein fires to hit neutral tech on the first frame that opponent can do something, start the frames for a second poke to hit after the stein shot is blocked, kara into barrier if superflash occurs.

Of course, this doesn't take into account on how its going to be set up, or what the human opponent ends up doing, such as teching a few frames late or choosing a more passive option like backdash or etc, so it remains a constant guessing game.

[Zidane]

Mu Stuff

Since I don't have Mu unlocked all I can do is agree with you on the 6B / delay cancel into DP.

[Synthesis]

The Furu no Tsurugi bait I was talking about is charging it, he Jayokus and whiffs, SoD FC but you're right. That would be bad. Many thanks guys.

[XAQshinor]

It doesn't seem like this has been brought up yet, but FYI, Mu-12 is actually relatively safe against Hazama in terms of Houtenjin.

Most of her normals are delay cancelable into Tsunugui or Omoikane. Case in point, even if Hazama instant blocks the second hit of 6B and tries to Houtenjin her, she can just cancel into either move and punish him on reaction.

Also FYI, Mu's 6B is completely air-tight into itself, even on instant block. The more you know~

Her normals being delay cancellable (all of them are) doesn't really help as much as you'd think. Almost every normal in the game is delay cancellable into a special move at any point actually. save for certain exceptions like noel 3c, litchi 6b, hazama 6c etc. the reason why it works in blockstrings is because you would already have been dedicated to pushing the next button in your blockstring in which case you would get hit out of your next move's startup so you cant delay cancel. and if you were fishing for delay cancels to punish houtenjin then you would have to end blockstrings early which is pretty much what he wants anyway.

for the 6b part, yea she can punish it on reaction if he IBes houtenjin, but that's assuming hes going for that option. if hes going for IB 2a/5a you would have to DP pretty much right away to beat those. but then what if he knows you want to do this so he does IB nothing? there are a lot of variables in this situation so i wouldn't exactly call 6b safe it's just that he actually has to think/guess to punish it and you have to think/guess to not get punished.

[Spark]

2) Just saw FlyingVe's post about -3. That means you have to IB the second hit to punish it with 2A/5A ( if your character's is fast enough ), which isn't that hard seeing as how only the first hit is overhead and you know when the second is coming, or just regular block and have a 0-3 frame move ( Tager Busters, etc ). Also Mu is not airborne while doing overhead so she can be thrown out of it.

Both hits of Mu's 6B must be blocked high.

[Henaki]

thanks for closing the thread without backing up your thoughts spirit, you stay free.

[qwerty]

heanki stop wasting energy on this place good godd

[Spirit Juice]

thanks for closing the thread without backing up your thoughts spirit, you stay free.

Maybe stop getting raped by Zidane and making extremely biased tier lists and I won't. Stay free, Free Coast.

All in all that thread was even worse than this one.

[Alzarath]

What bias? That whole thing was based off the supposed new tier list lol... I don't think it needed a new thread, though.

I don't see Hazama as S or w/e. Around A+ more like. I'd also switch Ara/Carl around from w/e they were in that post too, but eh.

Edit: b/c I'm an asshat, here's what I actually think:

S: Litchi/Bang

A+: Hazama/Hakumen/Taokaka

A: Carl/Arakune/Ragna

B: Jin/Lambda

B-: Noel (maybe B?)

C+: Tsubaki

C: Tager/Rachel

[Spirit Juice]

Stfu Alz.

I mean, I agree (about Hazama).

[Xie]

Her normals being delay cancellable (all of them are) doesn't really help as much as you'd think. Almost every normal in the game is delay cancellable into a special move at any point actually. save for certain exceptions like noel 3c, litchi 6b, hazama 6c etc. the reason why it works in blockstrings is because you would already have been dedicated to pushing the next button in your blockstring in which case you would get hit out of your next move's startup so you cant delay cancel. and if you were fishing for delay cancels to punish houtenjin then you would have to end blockstrings early which is pretty much what he wants anyway.

for the 6b part, yea she can punish it on reaction if he IBes houtenjin, but that's assuming hes going for that option. if hes going for IB 2a/5a you would have to DP pretty much right away to beat those. but then what if he knows you want to do this so he does IB nothing? there are a lot of variables in this situation so i wouldn't exactly call 6b safe it's just that he actually has to think/guess to punish it and you have to think/guess to not get punished.

I totally understand your point, but that is pretty much the case for any opponent fighting Hazama, I was just pointing out that Houtenjin is definitely not THE END of her offense, as it actually just creates a complicated offensive/defensive situation. On the risk/reward table, Hazama is forced to guess whether or not you are going to continue your blockstring, and risks potentially big damage on a wrong guess. Unless of course, your opponent is a godlike frame perfect machine, who can IB an attack, buffer the input for houtenjin, see the starting frames for your next move, then execute houtenjin without unblocking or blocking. If that's the case, I don't think anyone can win against that.

And in regards to 6B, my only point was that it was safe against Houtenjin, the huge damage punisher. Any character can IB it and hit a button, and so in that regard, it's actually safe against no one, so I would argue that it is not an issue that makes the matchup vs Hazama worse, but a fundamental weakness of the move across the board.

Edit: I don't think Hazama is #3 btw, if you want to discuss it, I'll be happy to, but it's definitely tl;dr for this thread.

[Seifuuku]

i think jump back+barrier is too strong against hazama.. chains at close range have very little block stun, barrier against jakou/214db and IAD throw can work but only if he is close enough as his IAD is pretty short.. he doesn't seem to have any frame traps that hit them in the jump start up either. then again he does not need to pressure, as he has a good neutral game i think.

[Dacidbro]

Jump+barrier should get beat by intelligent frame traps catching your jump start, happening off of his jabs, and multiple quick gatlings into things like 5C and 2C and 3C

[Fireryda]

well what does jump back + barrier accomplish for the opponent? it gets them away from hazama and unless it's haz or lambda they're not really making things better for themselves as they're giving him room to zone again.