Seifuuku Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 ah.. good points. actually, wouldn't hakumen arakune and possibly rachel benefit from getting away from hazama? hakumen for meter gain, arakune to set up clouds.. actually just found out 2 minutes ago that 2a->5c/2c catches jumps for big damage.. (thanks dacid) makes my entire post moot. oh well. as for ib jayoku against normals that are special cancel-able.. that is part of the risk. as someone said before, it works because people do not react to the IB and they continue their block string & get counter hit out of it. also iirc 6b on ib to non-hit confirmed SoD from mu is interrupt-able by most 2a's, and 6b straight to dp is air tight (doesn't really matter, people will delay to frame trap anyway)
Fireryda Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 hmm i can see arakune and rachel on that point but i don't see what hakumen has to gain. he's giving hazama a free ticket to run away which means when he has meter he has to catch him again. if he's sitting on 0 stars then maybe.. but i don't play haku so yeah.
Henaki Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 Stfu Alz. I mean, I agree (about Hazama). A+ and S- are pretty interchangeable, he's still the best of A or the bottom of S. ps i dont even remember the last time i played zidane. my placement of hazama is actually based on alzarath/LK/zidane's opinion, not my own.
dehumanizer Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 I actually agree wit Alz's list, cept maybe tao .
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 i think jump back+barrier is too strong against hazama.. chains at close range have very little block stun, barrier against jakou/214db and IAD throw can work but only if he is close enough as his IAD is pretty short.. he doesn't seem to have any frame traps that hit them in the jump start up either. then again he does not need to pressure, as he has a good neutral game i think. Jakou is completely air-unblockable, even if you Barrier, FYI.
CakeWasBannedd Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 Jakou is completely air-unblockable, even if you Barrier, FYI. nope
Fireryda Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 You can air-barrier jakou but it's pretty bad. On whiff it's horrendously unsafe.
Black Onslaught Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 What no, you can barrier block jakou. Only unlimited Hazama's jakou is complete air unblockable.
Synthesis Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 So I want everyone who can help with this to do so, but again the Mu forums are pretty bad for this sort of thing. Here are what I think Mu's matchups are. If you play the characters mentioned, please feel free to input how you feel the matchup is. Bang - 6.5 - 3.5 Bang Litchi - 6 - 4 Litchi Hazama - 6 - 4 Hazama Haku-men - 5.5 - 4.5 Hakumen Taokaka - 5.5 - 4.5 Taokaka Ragna - 5.5 - 4.5 Ragna Mu - 5 - 5 Arakune - 5 - 5 Lambda - 5.5 - 4.5 Mu Carl - 5.5 - 4.5 Mu Jin - 5.5 - 4.5 Mu Tsubaki - 5.5 - 4.5 Mu Rachel - 6 - 4 Mu Tager - 6.5 - 3.5 Mu (possibly 7-3 but I won't say something so bold) I'm not sure how the Makoto matchup is. I've played it a few times but not enough to actually have an opinion about it. These numbers are just speculation. Any thoughts?
FlyingVe Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 Looks about right to me. The only things I would take issue with are Arakune, I'm almost positive Mu has an advantage in this matchup (6-4), and Carl, again Carl has too many problems dealing with lasers for it to be any less than 6-4. Also, Tsubaki is probably 6-4 Mu, and Mu v lambda feels closer to even to me, and Rachel might have a bigger disadvantage than 4-6. I think Makoto v Mu is about 5.5-4.5 Makoto's advantage for the same reason I mentioned a few pages back.
Nobus3r1 Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 Maybe stop getting raped by Zidane and making extremely biased tier lists and I won't. Stay free, Free Coast. All in all that thread was even worse than this one. As someone without a horse in this race I seriously disagree. While both threads are utter train wrecks the one that got locked was at least (for the moment) the shorter train wreck at only ~15 pages vs. this thread at 200+ pages.
Synthesis Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 Looks about right to me. The only things I would take issue with are Arakune, I'm almost positive Mu has an advantage in this matchup (6-4), and Carl, again Carl has too many problems dealing with lasers for it to be any less than 6-4. Also, Tsubaki is probably 6-4 Mu, and Mu v lambda feels closer to even to me. I'll agree with you on Carl then. I had forgotten that 236D goes through Nirvana regardless and 214D pops destroy her life, especially when they are stacked on top of her. Carl also has a huge problem trying to approach. Reasons for advantage against Arakune? I said it was even because he can 2C out of 236D oki, jump out, teleport out, 3C, etc... and Arakune's air movement is too sporadic to properly punish any jump outs from her other oki options consistently. Homing lasers are useless against him since he's constantly moving, so zoning isn't a viable answer. Also, Mu's attacks are slow enough that any pressure outside of the corner can be jumped out of pretty easily which lets Arakune run away some more. I think that if it's in her favor at all, it would be 5.5 - 4.5 Mu. What are your reasons for the 6-4 matchup?
mundus Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 You can air-barrier jakou but it's pretty bad. On whiff it's horrendously unsafe. Even if you air barrier its very unsafe, like a free "insert your characters best fatal" unsafe.
MisterBadguy Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 I actually agree wit Alz's list, cept maybe tao . I think Tao gets underestimated too much. I'm not 100% sold on A+ either, but if you play a good Tao, you'll find out REAL quick why she's A tier.
whitevoid Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 So I want everyone who can help with this to do so, but again the Mu forums are pretty bad for this sort of thing. Here are what I think Mu's matchups are. If you play the characters mentioned, please feel free to input how you feel the matchup is. Bang - 6.5 - 3.5 Bang Litchi - 6 - 4 Litchi Hazama - 6 - 4 Hazama Haku-men - 5.5 - 4.5 Hakumen Taokaka - 5.5 - 4.5 Taokaka Ragna - 5.5 - 4.5 Ragna Mu - 5 - 5 Arakune - 5 - 5 Lambda - 5.5 - 4.5 Mu Carl - 5.5 - 4.5 Mu Jin - 5.5 - 4.5 Mu Tsubaki - 5.5 - 4.5 Mu Rachel - 6 - 4 Mu Tager - 6.5 - 3.5 Mu (possibly 7-3 but I won't say something so bold) I'm not sure how the Makoto matchup is. I've played it a few times but not enough to actually have an opinion about it. These numbers are just speculation. Any thoughts? You don't have Noel listed. I feel with Arakune there is a slight advantage, Mu 5.5-4.5. I think Carl could be 6-4. I think Hakumen, Jin, and Lambda are better in the match-up. 6-4, Hakumen, 5-5 Jin, and 5.5-4.5 Lambda.
Skye Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 Looks about right to me. The only things I would take issue with are Arakune, I'm almost positive Mu has an advantage in this matchup (6-4). Looks fine at 5:5. 5.5:4.5 favoring Mu at best.
Synthesis Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 You don't have Noel listed. I feel with Arakune there is a slight advantage, Mu 5.5-4.5. I think Carl could be 6-4. I think Hakumen, Jin, and Lambda are better in the match-up. 6-4, Hakumen, 5-5 Jin, and 5.5-4.5 Lambda. Huh. No one really plays Noel at all. So we'll agree that Mu vs Lambda is even and Arakune vs. Mu is 5.5 - 4.5 Mu's favor? I can agree with those. And the matchup against Hakumen is most definitely not 6 - 4. It feels too even for that. Sure he can cut your lasers but you can also throw a stein behind his portal with 6D and continue zoning pressure. They have about the same range on their normals but Hakumen 4C is slightly faster than anything you have, which is why I'd say it's 5.5 - 4.5 Haku. He doesn't get anything off a CH 4C at max range but Mu gets oki and knockdown off a max range CH 5C and a max range 6C may be a projectile but if you get a CH he's going to eat stupid damage.
Alex073088 Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 ah.. good points. actually, wouldn't hakumen arakune and possibly rachel benefit from getting away from hazama? hakumen for meter gain, arakune to set up clouds.. actually just found out 2 minutes ago that 2a->5c/2c catches jumps for big damage.. (thanks dacid) makes my entire post moot. oh well. as for ib jayoku against normals that are special cancel-able.. that is part of the risk. as someone said before, it works because people do not react to the IB and they continue their block string & get counter hit out of it. also iirc 6b on ib to non-hit confirmed SoD from mu is interrupt-able by most 2a's, and 6b straight to dp is air tight (doesn't really matter, people will delay to frame trap anyway) rachel would not benefit she needs to be rushing hazama down. he can almsot reach full screen and punish her zoning midly easy. lobelia's have alot more start-up then hazamas chains do and all you have to is chain where the lobelia is not falling at and then rape her.
FlyingVe Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 My reasons for thinking arakune is 6-4 is the same reason that Arakune's matchup with lambda is so bad. Yes, he can dodge the lasers, but between the lasers and jC, Arakune has a hard time doing his usual air shenanigans. I think that if the Mu player plays safely and conservatively there isn't much arakune can do short of trade life for curse meter. Also, 236D Oki isn't really that good. Most characters have good answers to it. Mu's other, better oki options work fine against the blob.
Synthesis Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 Yeah, 236D oki isn't that great but it's useful as an oki mixup. I usually use 5D j.2D IAD or other forms of small setups into RTSD. Usually works.
FlyingVe Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 Also, I agree with Haku being even or close too. Haku only had the advantage when Mu's relied on 236D oki. Now that we have discovered other options he get's zoned pretty bad. For the same reasons I think Ragna is closer to even. His approach is bait for Mu's C pokes. He also get's zoned hard, and has very poor answers to Mu's oki options.
Skye Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 My reasons for thinking arakune is 6-4 is the same reason that Arakune's matchup with lambda is so bad. Yes, he can dodge the lasers, but between the lasers and jC, Arakune has a hard time doing his usual air shenanigans. I think that if the Mu player plays safely and conservatively there isn't much arakune can do short of trade life for curse meter. You know, Arakune can zone too. And as long as he's dodging lasers, he has no reason to do his "usual air shenanigans". Lambda's zoning is far more air tight than Mu's, hence why it's worse vs Lambda than vs Mu, and even vs Lambda, Arakune can get a cloud in through a blind spot. I think that if the Arakune plays patiently and smart, he'll end up testing Mu's patience, because he doesn't need to be in your face to get curse meter. Since lasers are easier to dodge than magic swords, Arakune actually has options full screen. Stay broke, homing cloud.
FlyingVe Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 Yeah, this can be a very boring zoning match, but if Mu is setting steins properly, you will get hit every time you try to summon a cloud. Also, Mu can JC steins so she doesn't have a good reason to let the clouds hit her unless you force the issue. But to do that you must get through lasers and jC. There's very little reason I can see why Mu shouldn't just run away in this fight.
Skye Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 Don't want to adopt this into theory fighter, so I won't go any further than saying that all Arakune has to do is dodge the laser and cloud during the cool down, fact of the matter is that no matter how you see it, Mu has to set the stein before firing the laser, that's more than enough time to cloud, also take into account that certain triggers have to travel through previously set steins. Not trying to change your opinion, doubt I could, just giving an Arakune's perspective, two sides to every match up. We fight better zoners than Mu, hell we're even with Rachel only because of her zoning.
farranpoison Posted September 8, 2010 Posted September 8, 2010 I think Makoto v Mu is about 5.5-4.5 Makoto's advantage for the same reason I mentioned a few pages back. Makoto is absolutely terrible with zoning characters. Mu's C pokes are deadly vs. Makoto, and parry can only help you so much. Lasers can also mess up her approach as well. I'll repeat what I said about Makoto vs. Lambda: Zoning is bad, but once Makoto gets in, Mu has to be careful. The only difference is that Mu actually has a decent DP vs Makoto, while Lambda Gravity Well isn't that good. I'd put Mu vs Makoto as 5.5-4.5, Mu favor.
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