BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[LordSpectreX]

this is totally not true, how many matches have you seen won with just 4C and jC

also, hakumen is in counter hit state when he uses these moves, and can be punished within a certain range.

4C and jC are also horrible on iB

I never said you can win with just 4C and J.C. I just meant that they are good zoning tools.

You can disagree that they are good, but I didnt mean you can win with just those.

[huey253]

Maybe cause 4C and j.C means that he pretty much never gets close, I imagine.

pretty much never get close....

i'm just saying thats flat out wrong. it just takes patience.

EDIT:

oh wait i'm wrong, this is a american match up chart, so patience isn't really something that should be calculated in.

[Zeromegaman]

I agree with your sexy Dominican ass.

This pleases a fellow Dominican. It pleases me so well, I need a bucket next to the comp now.

Also

I see we Have Makoto and Mu in the lineups, nothing for Valk? Too Early?

[ZONG_one]

Too early.

And you might be Dominican, but you ain't sexy like Biscuits nigga.

[Mr.Biscuits]

Oh Zong.... you make me blush...

[Zeromegaman]

Too early.

And you might be Dominican, but you ain't sexy like Biscuits nigga.

I love it when you talk dirty Zong.

On Topic:

Im loving the Haku-men Numbers I agree with what I see. And whats up with Carl?

No one disagrees on his match up with Ragna?

[ZONG_one]

I don't, that's for sure.

Unless people are going to try telling me it's in Ragna's favor, I'm not considering changing it.

[Zeromegaman]

I wouldnt say in Ragna's favor not at all. I definitely feel Carl has more of an advantage against Raggy, but thats because The Carl's I know are beasts.

I wouldn't say its even, but then again, it comes down to the players.

[Zeero]

anybody who gets decent damage off random hits is automatically good against Carl.

I don't see anything wrong with Carl's matchups. If i had to change anything, i'd make Hazama, Ragna, maybe even Arakune 5.5 in their favour.

Arakune 5D > Carl

Heres from experience

arakune: 5A(blocked)->5D

Option 1. 5A the 5D -> couldn't reach, CHed T^T

Option 2. backdash the 5D -> shitty backdash, caught in the air into jACD T^T

Option 3. Gear super -> trades... sometimes beats it before it comes out T^T

Option 4. vivace -> actually hit me out of it T^T

Arakune backdash > sandwich pressure T^T

Arakune air throw -> instant curse > predictable j2c crossovers T^T

Arakune 5C > any jump-in Carl has T^T

Arakune cloud > Nirvana since it no longer has hit properties T^T

Arakune with curse -> any hit > Carl's life T^T

fuck you Kousaka T^T

or maybe i'm just scrub T^T

[LordSpectreX]

I kind of agree. Though j.B is gdlk against Arakune.

[Zeero]

Oh, i forgot to mention

Arakune jD > carl's ground dash due to recovery T^T

[mAc Chaos]

Maybe cause 4C and j.C means that he pretty much never gets close, I imagine.

Tager can get close. It just takes slowly working your way in. It's just that if you're the kind of guy that just wants to go balls to the wall all out on someone then it's going to seem like a boring, grindingly slow match as Tager inches his way in.

Basically, I guess what I'm wondering is what changed in the matchup, because from me playing it, it feels the same way it did in CT. As far as Haku zoning out Tager, he pretty much had the same toolset in CT, or at least moves that functioned the same way. In CS I use j.C to keep him out of the air and 4C on the ground, in CT I used 6A to keep him out of the air and 6C on the ground. You can keep him out until he gets you magnetized, and when he gets in he can end the round. It was 5.5 Tager's favor in CT and in CS it was considered 5.5 Haku's favor.

So for it to go from 5.5/4.5 to 6.5/3.5 seems to be a bit dramatic. I never felt that Tager was helpless or anything; you poke him to keep him out doing a little damage, but if he gets in he makes it all up and more. I'm just curious what you guys are thinking.

Looking at the overall matchup for Tager though, it doesn't make sense to me that Haku/Tager would be 3.5 for Tager but Mu/Tager would be 5-5... I'm pretty sure that Mu can shut down Tager a lot more effectively, so she would have to be much higher there, right?

[Jason D.]

I'm still wondering why Rachel vs Tager is 6.5-3.5 Tager's favor. I mean yeah it's Tager's favor, but its not that bad. Same thing with Rachel vs Hakumen and Noel. The rest I can agree though.

Probably because nobody there plays a good Rachel.

I'd say the V. Noel one is dead-on, though. But V. Hakumen should indeed be a point or half easier, and the V. Tager match-up is definitely waaaaaay easier than that.

[Alzarath]

I was actually a bit torn on giving #s for that matchup. (haku vs tager)

Change it to 6-4 if you like.

[ZONG_one]

I wouldnt say in Ragna's favor not at all. I definitely feel Carl has more of an advantage against Raggy, but thats because The Carl's I know are beasts.

I wouldn't say its even, but then again, it comes down to the players.

Carl wants to space in this matchup, for one.

And one of his main spacing tools, 5C, gets beat by any Ragna D move.

Also, since Carl's blockstrings are so unsafe on IB, and Ragna is fucking stupid with IB, there are a lot of holes in pressure, and you can't really commit to keeping ragna locked down.

Also, IAD j.2C cross up < 5A or DP, on IB, or before it even hits.

Because of this, CH 5A > your crossup.

and CH 5A gatlings to 5D for ragna.

Considering all of this, and how biased I am against Ragna, I still felt it fair to call it even.

Ragna is probably going to get more going from defense than offense in this matchup.

Also, you don't really have an answer to 22C corner oki as a Carl player.

[Seifuuku]

Carl wants to space in this matchup, for one.

And one of his main spacing tools, 5C, gets beat by any Ragna D move.

Also, since Carl's blockstrings are so unsafe on IB, and Ragna is fucking stupid with IB, there are a lot of holes in pressure, and you can't really commit to keeping ragna locked down.

Also, IAD j.2C cross up < 5A or DP, on IB, or before it even hits.

Because of this, CH 5A > your crossup.

and CH 5A gatlings to 5D for ragna.

Considering all of this, and how biased I am against Ragna, I still felt it fair to call it even.

Ragna is probably going to get more going from defense than offense in this matchup.

Also, you don't really have an answer to 22C corner oki as a Carl player.

ragna D moves are unsafe as hell on whiff, you should not have to worry about 5c being beat by ragna drives..

carl's blockstrings do not seem that bad. 5b/2b is safe, 6b requires an immediate reaction off a regular instant block (DP is 7 frames) for 100% punish. then you have nirvana as well when you have him sandwiched.. 2a/5a is pretty bad on IB, but both are jc'able anyway.

if your cross up is getting instant blocked/dp'd/5a mashed out of then you are being predictable with it most likely.. is it wrong for a mix up to be punishable if the other player reads it..?

i think it's even as well, though

[Zeromegaman]

Carl wants to space in this matchup, for one.

And one of his main spacing tools, 5C, gets beat by any Ragna D move.

Also, since Carl's blockstrings are so unsafe on IB, and Ragna is fucking stupid with IB, there are a lot of holes in pressure, and you can't really commit to keeping ragna locked down.

Also, IAD j.2C cross up < 5A or DP, on IB, or before it even hits.

Because of this, CH 5A > your crossup.

and CH 5A gatlings to 5D for ragna.

Considering all of this, and how biased I am against Ragna, I still felt it fair to call it even.

Ragna is probably going to get more going from defense than offense in this matchup.

Also, you don't really have an answer to 22C corner oki as a Carl player.

22C oki? Agree there.

But Carl on a standard dishes out so much more than Ragna/ A good Ragna would dish out about what? 3.5k if he's good. 4k+ if Carl is horrible.

A Good Carl should be getting 4k Easy on Ragna.

I agree on defense, Ragna playing smart and making openings for CHs would be the best, but I feel Carl still has a bit of an edge.

Carl’s average good enough to get by without using supers, but adding a super can add a bit of damage

Ragna on the otherhand will need BE Loop into Super for that 3.5K + Atleast I do from time to time.

I feel Carl has so much more at his disposal, he can easily overwhelm a Bad Raggy, and still give work to a good one. Being sandwiched between Nirvana and Carl is the last place you want to be, and its the best way for Carl to dominate. Atleast it isnt like in CT where it was death tagged onto your name lol

Ragna does have a good jump in though, which Carl lacks, so I can see Raggy players getting a lead on Carl. I guess its safe to say its even but I still feel Carl should be given a higher score towards Raggy. Leading a Ragna into a Volante while hiding behind Nirvana is simply gruesome lol.

[Seifuuku]

i am actually not so sure about this, but IB->cantata might be viable if the gear comes out in 1 frame.. if it does, you can pretty much punish all of ragna's block strings/force him to block

anyway, ragna gets 4k+ meterless off overhead/low/close range 5b/j.c.. it is only at max range where he might have to use meter to gain significant damage (other than BK).. and as carl ragna should never really be able to jump in on you with j.c

[Spirit Juice]

I'd agree with Ragna vs Carl being even.

I'm not sure why someone thinks Ragna vs Lambda is bad for Ragna at all. Shit is even.

[ZONG_one]

ragna D moves are unsafe as hell on whiff, you should not have to worry about 5c being beat by ragna drives..

carl's blockstrings do not seem that bad. 5b/2b is safe, 6b requires an immediate reaction off a regular instant block (DP is 7 frames) for 100% punish. then you have nirvana as well when you have him sandwiched.. 2a/5a is pretty bad on IB, but both are jc'able anyway.

if your cross up is getting instant blocked/dp'd/5a mashed out of then you are being predictable with it most likely.. is it wrong for a mix up to be punishable if the other player reads it..?

i think it's even as well, though

Well, you shouldn't be whiffing D moves lol.

I'm talking you - nirvana - me poke game. On whiff, you hit nirvana and gtfo.

On trade, you win, even through nirvana.

iirc if you IB 5B, 5B > 2B isn't safe, but you could have me there.

5A > 2A isn't safe.

2A > 5A is unsafe.

ANYTHING > 6B is unsafe.

5B > 5C is unsafe.

2B > anything is unsafe.

IB'd 5C is unsafe period.

jcable is fine, and often times your way out as a Carl player, when playing against chars with a reversal. But this is why I said lockdown is hard. If you jumpcancel, you just gave your pressure away.

All valid points though, I like this feedback from Rawrgnas.

22C oki? Agree there.

But Carl on a standard dishes out so much more than Ragna/ A good Ragna would dish out about what? 3.5k if he's good. 4k+ if Carl is horrible.

A Good Carl should be getting 4k Easy on Ragna.

I agree on defense, Ragna playing smart and making openings for CHs would be the best, but I feel Carl still has a bit of an edge.

Carl’s average good enough to get by without using supers, but adding a super can add a bit of damage

Ragna on the otherhand will need BE Loop into Super for that 3.5K + Atleast I do from time to time.

I feel Carl has so much more at his disposal, he can easily overwhelm a Bad Raggy, and still give work to a good one. Being sandwiched between Nirvana and Carl is the last place you want to be, and its the best way for Carl to dominate. Atleast it isnt like in CT where it was death tagged onto your name lol

Ragna does have a good jump in though, which Carl lacks, so I can see Raggy players getting a lead on Carl. I guess its safe to say its even but I still feel Carl should be given a higher score towards Raggy. Leading a Ragna into a Volante while hiding behind Nirvana is simply gruesome lol.

I really disagree with what I bolded.

Terrible Carl will not net 4k. Good ragna should be getting more than 3.5.

Let's say they're both good players, usual combo will be in 3.5 range. from here, it's what you get from it that makes the two different.

4k is not "easy," it's common, but not easy. Ragna will get it easier than Carl will.

He will also get more meter, and he will get corner + most likely oki.

Carl's oki game isn't that strong, and it's midscreen usually.

In the corner, yeah, you can cover 3 of 4 tech options, but midscreen is 2 covered for the most part.

With Ragna, you have legit oki, where I tech and am standing. I don't get a safe neutral tech, and can't roll period, and have no reversal.

Also, Ragna has a stupid good abare game.

Carl isn't an abare char, really. So there's not much to be said about him there, I guess.

i am actually not so sure about this, but IB->cantata might be viable if the gear comes out in 1 frame.. if it does, you can pretty much punish all of ragna's block strings/force him to block

anyway, ragna gets 4k+ meterless off overhead/low/close range 5b/j.c.. it is only at max range where he might have to use meter to gain significant damage (other than BK).. and as carl ragna should never really be able to jump in on you with j.c

IB Cantata is situationally viable, but not worth the risk because it's not frame 1.

If you get hit, super flash will appear, and gear won't even come out. Cantata is a terrible "reversal," since at best it trades, at worst you don't even get it and you've wasted meter.

Ragna can gatling any normal into ID and RC it to be safe from that anyway. Then he just IB's for most of his meter back.

Put Carl in the corner and play smart, and guaranteed he'll have to burst.

Momentum is a huge part in this matchup. (Nothing to do with matchup charts or anything just my opinion.)

I think they've both got the tools to trump the other one's tools.

It just matters when and how they're used.

[Henaki]

22C oki? Agree there.

But Carl on a standard dishes out so much more than Ragna/ A good Ragna would dish out about what? 3.5k if he's good. 4k+ if Carl is horrible.

A Good Carl should be getting 4k Easy on Ragna.

I agree on defense, Ragna playing smart and making openings for CHs would be the best, but I feel Carl still has a bit of an edge.

Carl’s average good enough to get by without using supers, but adding a super can add a bit of damage

Ragna on the otherhand will need BE Loop into Super for that 3.5K + Atleast I do from time to time.

I feel Carl has so much more at his disposal, he can easily overwhelm a Bad Raggy, and still give work to a good one. Being sandwiched between Nirvana and Carl is the last place you want to be, and its the best way for Carl to dominate. Atleast it isnt like in CT where it was death tagged onto your name lol

Ragna does have a good jump in though, which Carl lacks, so I can see Raggy players getting a lead on Carl. I guess its safe to say its even but I still feel Carl should be given a higher score towards Raggy. Leading a Ragna into a Volante while hiding behind Nirvana is simply gruesome lol.

you live in my state.

despite this fact, who the fuck are you?

[ZONG_one]

if your cross up is getting instant blocked/dp'd/5a mashed out of then you are being predictable with it most likely.. is it wrong for a mix up to be punishable if the other player reads it..?

I wouldn't call it a read.

Carl only has 3 jc'able moves on block.

And they're in the beginning of a string, as none of his ground normals reverse beat.

Not hard to notice it's coming.

IAD j.2C is very react-to-able when all you have to do is 5A.

Also, a lot of the times when someone blocks it, it's automatically an IB because they were late to react.

If you ever notice yourself IBing j.2C crossup, just hit 5A.

It will beat my 5B unless I react with 5A of my own.

[Skye]

After a fuck ton of research I have cracked the secret to the ultimate match up chart, will post info later on once my theories fall in place.

[Zeromegaman]

I really disagree with what I bolded.

Terrible Carl will not net 4k. Good ragna should be getting more than 3.5.

Let's say they're both good players, usual combo will be in 3.5 range. from here, it's what you get from it that makes the two different.

4k is not "easy," it's common, but not easy. Ragna will get it easier than Carl will.

He will also get more meter, and he will get corner + most likely oki.

Carl's oki game isn't that strong, and it's midscreen usually.

In the corner, yeah, you can cover 3 of 4 tech options, but midscreen is 2 covered for the most part.

With Ragna, you have legit oki, where I tech and am standing. I don't get a safe neutral tech, and can't roll period, and have no reversal.

Also, Ragna has a stupid good abare game.

Carl isn't an abare char, really. So there's not much to be said about him there, I guess.

IB Cantata is situationally viable, but not worth the risk because it's not frame 1.

If you get hit, super flash will appear, and gear won't even come out. Cantata is a terrible "reversal," since at best it trades, at worst you don't even get it and you've wasted meter.

Ragna can gatling any normal into ID and RC it to be safe from that anyway. Then he just IB's for most of his meter back.

Put Carl in the corner and play smart, and guaranteed he'll have to burst.

Momentum is a huge part in this matchup. (Nothing to do with matchup charts or anything just my opinion.)

I think they've both got the tools to trump the other one's tools.

It just matters when and how they're used.

Ah I see what you mean now just tested out a few things and yeah I can definitely agree with everything you just said Zong. We Ragnas do have our Advantages when it comes to Carl too. Yeah I can agree that its a even match up now. I realize now that its really he Mind Games that break it down. You Carls are a fiesty bunch lol

you live in my state.

despite this fact, who the fuck are you?

A Sexy ass Dominican whose been playing since GGX

[A.X.I.S.]

After a fuck ton of research I have cracked the secret to the ultimate match up chart, will post info later on once my theories fall in place.

incoming skye.