SansProtocol Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I put faith in the fact that the top players that put effort in these charts would know their characters and their match-ups better than most. Scrutinizing such details is pointless as these will never be absolutely perfect (humanly impossible) and most of these minute differences will be addressed later as the game develops. I helped make the chart and I don't even agree with Bang's matchups. That's how wonky it is. Well, isn't that fuck all? XD I'm going to go stay free somewhere else now.
ToastCrust Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 (edited) Haha, my problem with Tao isn't her 6C. I usually have a burst reserved for that and it's not nailing me on a daily basis. I was just listing off some threats, I don't know the very details of Tao, but her damage is VERY good, in my opinion. Not trying to be rude, but I think Xdest is much better than TaoFTW and the shit he can actually pull off online for a non-Japanese player is retarted, it's not surprising to see how far she rose to the tier list. Although, 6C isn't so slow and so bad that 7K is still not broken. It's still broken, it's not as slow and unlikely to be pulled off like a fully charged 6C attack by Hakumen. Although I'll say if someone's getting hit by 6C a lot and losing 7k something's wrong, it doesn't mean it's not stupid broken. It almost looks like this whole chart should be scrapped, to be honest, even the people who made this chart seem to kinda disagree. Arakune and Carl being lower tier than Lambda just makes me giggle because it's so not true, the Japanese seemed to think otherwise not long ago. Can't Fumo get a full curse combo going from just landing one 2A? (or was it 6A?) From there, Arakune does broken 7-8K curse damage. Maybe the chart seemed more bias due to certain players skill level than the characters they play, it seems. You guys are good and respectable offline players, but something about this chart just seems very wrong. Well, tiers are based on just ratio of good match ups to bad match ups, and how good or bad they are. Lambda places well tier wise because she just destroys certain characters, and generally good match ups against a great number of characters. But in tournament play she just isn't as viable despite tier placement, since she just features glaringly bad match ups (according to the chart) against the best (and as a result, most played) characters in the game. And there's simply no way to build a tier list from scratch, that could account for such realities when deciding tier placement, as far as I can figure it, without being probably misrepresentative (as in, you can't arbitrarily do things like, having a bad match up against Bang and Litchi do more damage to your placement than having a bad match up against Lambda, as in Arakune's case). Because the simple reality is, if SBO was not teams, and it still had like 80% of the entrants being Bang or Litchi, those like 2 Lambda players are basically doomed. While Arakune, for example, profits, because one of his bad match ups becomes very improbable so far as it coming up. While Lambda has a 100% chance of running into her worst match ups several times. But even with that reality, a tier list just can't be built to reflect it. That is "how" a tier list could fail to reflect reality. The only alternative method would be to build tier lists not from match up knowledge, but just from corrobating statistics, like the Scruber Smash Bros. community did at some point, if I recall properly. But that simply reflects tiers by assuming the performance of characters in tournaments reflect their actual strength. EDIT: As an addendum, the match-up based tier lists that worldjem7 builds aren't going to feel accurate competitively, when the master format of the game is to play double elimination. If fighting games tournaments were played round robin style or swiss tournament style, this format of matchup/tier charts would feel significantly more accurate, probably, assuming a half decent variety of characters being represented (ideally equal numbers of every character). Edited November 4, 2010 by ToastCrust
St1ckBuG Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Who the hell made this chart? It's horrible. Hazama #3? Really? I can beat my little sister's Hazama 10-0 with Lambda. How the hell is that a bad match-up.
severin Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 (edited) stuff Yo. I don't play TaoFTW. In fact, I'm not even basing this based on my own play experiences too much. I'm basing this on my understanding of my own character, and how her matchups, on an ideal level, should work. Edited November 4, 2010 by severin
Zidane Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 and stop feelin yourself Logically talking about matchups the person plays, giving insight to the masses = feeling yourself Claiming to be the best in America, losing at SBO quals, losing to 13 frame throws = being humble Never change Dacid. Never fucking change.
Rhiya Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Seriously, can someone explain why Tsubaki v Lambda is 45-55? >_> <_<
Asakura Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 The only alternative method would be to build tier lists not from match up knowledge, but just from corrobating statistics, like the Scruber Smash Bros. community did at some point, if I recall properly. But that simply reflects tiers by assuming the performance of characters in tournaments reflect their actual strength. What the Smash community does with tiers works and it reflects tournament play and play at the highest level. That's the only time a tier list really even comes into play anyway. Basing it off tournament data is far from a bad thing.
eirei Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Seriously, can someone explain why Tsubaki v Lambda is 45-55? >_> <_< Because Lambchops isn't blind.
ToastCrust Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 But Lambchops only has a mono-eye visor, so she doesn't have as much an advantage as people with two eyes and depth of field. Also explaining why Tager bodies Tsubaki. He has four eyes. What the Smash community does with tiers works and it reflects tournament play and play at the highest level. That's the only time a tier list really even comes into play anyway. Basing it off tournament data is far from a bad thing. Yeah, I wasn't saying it isn't useful or anything. But it only works well if you're sampling from ideal tournament data (tournaments featuring the best players of all characters), which can ostensibly happen with a huge community like Smash. No way in hell it'll work with Blazblue, and not in America, that's for sure lol
Arcade Fire87 Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Yo. I don't play TaoFTW. In fact, I'm not even basing this based on my own play experiences too much. I'm basing this on my understanding of my own character, and how her matchups, on an ideal level, should work. And I know you and the offline players know your characters well--BUT--how much do you know about other characters that aren't your mains/subs? I feel like it takes two players knowing their character very well and applying it in the matchups to truly know. We'll say you and Pulsr are one of the top Lambda players (although he plays Mu now) in the country--but if you're not playing a top Tao, how can you truly know, it seems like it becomes theory fighter? I've seen some Tao players in the Socal region but I don't remember them being too great. If you're not playing someone close in your skill level it seems pointless : / I know I'm just a scrubby netplayer when it comes down to it, I'm just raising a few concerns
Rhiya Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Also explaining why Tager bodies Tsubaki. He has four eyes. Holy shit, this explains everything
farranpoison Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 You forgot to mention that Tager also has different modes of seeing, effectively doubling or even tripling his eyeness.
DaiAndOh Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 You can stay at my place. No homo. Now that's a sitcom. Dacid, stick to posting pictures/shops of you in random costumes and talking about your character please. To be relevant, I think Bang-Litchi is not in Bang's favor, even at best. Same vs Tao. I also think in a month, this won't matter ^_^.
qwerty Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 It doesn't when the Japanese widely consider Arakune and Carl to be A tier, but they're only B tier in this chart. yeah, this bothers me. plus, i think most of arakune's "bad" matchups are even, lambda notwithstanding (and mu i guess, but i don't know enough about her to say otherwise).
rei-Scarred Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 hahahaha Bang definitively higher than Litchi now where does this shit come from. everything else looks far more accurate than the last one, but that being the first thing I see makes it hard to take this list seriously.
Nakkiel Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 To be relevant, I think Bang-Litchi is not in Bang's favor, even at best. How so? I disagree and I know I'm not the only one.
huey253 Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 litchi>bang overall but bang vs litchi is in bang's favor
DaiAndOh Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 How so? I disagree and I know I'm not the only one. Because I'm American and Litchi has significant pokes/range on Bang. And he lacks options to get out of her corner oki without meter. Naturally the saving grace is Dnails. Like in life.
rei-Scarred Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Litchi can force Bang to approach. Bang's offense vs. Litchi's defense at least at neutral is no good for Bang. If Bang gets a knockdown then he has an advantage, but if Litchi gets a knockdown she gets godlike super oki. I suck against Litchi but to me it feels like Litchi getting a hit is going to do a lot more in the long run than Bang getting a hit, and she can get one easier than Bang if she's playing smart. I'd say it's 5-5 because of nails though lol.
Nakkiel Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Litchi can force Bang to approach. Bang's offense vs. Litchi's defense at least at neutral is no good for Bang. If Bang gets a knockdown then he has an advantage, but if Litchi gets a knockdown she gets godlike super oki. I suck against Litchi but to me it feels like Litchi getting a hit is going to do a lot more in the long run than Bang getting a hit, and she can get one easier than Bang if she's playing smart. I'd say it's 5-5 because of nails though lol. I can see where you're coming from the okizeme sentiments, but I don't feel that forces Bang into a bad position during neutral at all. He has nails and he has great movement options, Bang's 5B is also overall a very strong move against her.
huey253 Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 only in America can BANG be SSS TIER MASHING 5A x N
Lord Knight Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Litchi vs Bang, maybe slight advantage for Litchi
huey253 Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 in America, its 5A. did you miss the Dacidbro era?
Spirit Juice Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 (edited) Okay, so just by adjusting Bang's match ups by 1.5 points, (changing him vs Litchi to 50, vs Lambda to 65, and vs Rachel 65), his average becomes 58.33. Adjusting Litchi so that her match up with Bang is now even brings her average to 58, which is closer to Bang by 1.33 points (difference was 1.33 points before readjustments). Point being: some match ups are a little skewed in the current chart, but enough so it appears that Bang is better than Litchi. He isn't. Litchi isn't better than Bang either. The power difference between those two characters are compared to one another is so minute that it doesn't even fucking matter. Get over it. This is 100% correct. Edited November 4, 2010 by Spirit Juice
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