Beautiful Death Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Wowzers Blaz is actually sounding a bit like Brawl with these 6-4/3-7 character ditto match ups. Like say, Snake v. Snake was 55-45 for whichever Snake got the higher port priority. Dunno if that is still something people consider nowadays, but at one point it was. Blaz is shaping up nicely. Ah well. I'd like to know more about this, seeing as Blaz doesn't have port priority. I think. Don't tell me it does, because then I'll feel like a goofball, which I DO NOT want.
farranpoison Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Honestly, how is a mirror anything but a 5-5? Sure, Arakune mirrors come down to who gets curse first. But it evens out on both sides because the same disadvantages are for BOTH players. I don't understand the logic behind the 6-4 or 3-7 mirrors. It's not one player that has these setbacks/advantages, it's BOTH.
advancedNoob Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Both players in a mirror have the same tools and both inflict the same amounts of damage, how in the world are people typing things like 6-4 or even 7-3??? It all comes down to predictions and knowledge of what's the best tool to use in what situation (assuming skill is equal).
A.X.I.S. Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 he just explained why in detail...so instead of questioning the man from japan how about you wrap your head around it. it isn't hard, I thought about it for 5mins and I completely understand what he's talking about.
Rhiya Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 There's no way to argue that the matchups are anything but 5-5. Now, some characters will have harder mirrors, and some will have easier mirrors. But the problems that arise apply equally to both players.
FlyingVe Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Seriously, AXIS is right. I don't really get it either, but I wouldn't say the man from japan (and a great player) is wrong just because you don't understand it.
Rhiya Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Seriously, AXIS is right. I don't really get it either, but I wouldn't say the man from japan (and a great player) is wrong just because you don't understand it. "It doesn't make sense but some guy said it so it must be right"
FlyingVe Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 "It doesn't make sense but some guy said it so it must be right" Asky questions, try to understand it. Don't just say he's wrong.
zeth07 Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 he just explained why in detail...so instead of questioning the man from japan how about you wrap your head around it. it isn't hard, I thought about it for 5mins and I completely understand what he's talking about. It made perfect sense, except in relation to the actual match-up chart itself. Saying that a mirror is easier or harder still has no correlation to the actual numbers. How can an easier mirror be considered 6-4 when BOTH players have the same exact opportunity to have an easier time in the match compared to other mirrors. The chart doesn't care about how difficult the mirror is compared to other mirrors, the chart is about how difficult or easier the match is for the character vs. another character. A mirror match is two of the same characters, so it's impossible for one to have any advantage over the other. Thus it's impossible for a mirror to be anything other than even in terms of a match-up chart. Now what he said made sense in terms of how the mirrors are different, but that can't change the match-up to something other than even. It just doesn't make sense in that regard.
jiyuna Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Sorry, I see some people are still confused. My English has gotten rusty so I guess I didn't explain it well enough. Yes- in the end, with perfect play by both sides, every mirror match boils down to an even matchup. But in terms of ranking characters, the Japanese look at the difficulty of the mirror to help adjust the ranking among the individual tiers. Think about it this way, if a character has an easy mirror (what the Japanese label 5-5 in terms of character ranking) then he doesn't need to change his style- just play. In the end, you'll win if you are better. If a character (i.e Arakune) has a difficult matchup, then you'll have to play an almost entirely different character/playstyle in order to win the match. The Japanese give this kind of match a 7-3 purely in terms of character ranking. This is one of the reasons why Arakune tends to come out a little lower than he seems to deserve on tier lists- he has bad matchups against chars like Lambda, as well as a difficult mirror. If you still don't agree/understand (it took me a while to get, as well), look at it like this- a tier list basically describes how easy/difficult it is for a character to win, so why wouldn't having an easy/difficult mirror match be included in the analysis?
FlyingVe Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Ah, I think I get it now. Thank you. I still wanna hear why you think Tsubaki is higher though. It just seems like everything is against her... except Rachel.
farranpoison Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 It makes sense in the context of certain characters have easier mirrors than others. However, the matchups are in terms of how both characters have an easy/hard time fighting each other. Ara vs Lambda is 3-7 because winning with Ara against a Lambda is so goddamn difficult, while vice versa for the Lambda. Now with mirrors, BOTH PLAYERS have the same advantages/disadvantages. So let's say as an Ara player, you against another Ara feels like a 3-7 matchup. Well guess what, so does the other Ara player. For you, it's a 3-7. For them, it's a 7-3. Guess what? It cancels each other out, making it even. So yes, some mirrors are goddamn difficult. But that difficulty applies to both sides of the spectrum, not just one player.
FlyingVe Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I think he's trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong), that a tier list is slightly different from a matchup chart. A matchup chart ranks odds of victory, while a tier list determines how easy it is for a character to win. Therefor an obnoxious mirror match could slightly tip one, but not the other.
zeth07 Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 (edited) Sorry, I see some people are still confused. My English has gotten rusty so I guess I didn't explain it well enough. Yes- in the end, with perfect play by both sides, every mirror match boils down to an even matchup. But in terms of ranking characters, the Japanese look at the difficulty of the mirror to help adjust the ranking among the individual tiers. Think about it this way, if a character has an easy mirror (what the Japanese label 5-5 in terms of character ranking) then he doesn't need to change his style- just play. In the end, you'll win if you are better. If a character (i.e Arakune) has a difficult matchup, then you'll have to play an almost entirely different character/playstyle in order to win the match. The Japanese give this kind of match a 7-3 purely in terms of character ranking. This is one of the reasons why Arakune tends to come out a little lower than he seems to deserve on tier lists- he has bad matchups against chars like Lambda, as well as a difficult mirror. If you still don't agree/understand (it took me a while to get, as well), look at it like this- a tier list basically describes how easy/difficult it is for a character to win, so why wouldn't having an easy/difficult mirror match be included in the analysis? I fully understand, yet we aren't talking about just a "Tier List" that says S Tier, A Tier, etc. This is a match-up chart that forms a tier list based on that. Obviously the idea that the match-up chart always goes by is that both players are equally skilled, so in theory you can't ever say one player is more skilled than the other to determine the results for a match-up chart. Although the problem with that is that the players who make the tier list may have trouble with certain match-ups or don't have the same match-up experience (which is why this list is always debatable anyway). The real solution would be if you had a TON of results from tournament matches that provided a good enough sample to give you the REAL results of the match-ups, but this isn't feasible for us. Now if we did in fact make a list that was simply, S,A,B, etc. it would be a lot easier. Then it wouldn't necessarily come down to the exact numbers and more of a broader scope. Even then, I doubt mirrors would matter or come into play to effect the placement on the list. Edited November 4, 2010 by zeth07
farranpoison Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 But isn't how easily a character wins also determined by the strength of the other character? You don't go in a tier list and say, "this character has x and x tools and can beat characters." You say, "this character has x and x tools that beat this other character's x and x tools," or vice versa. The matchup logic would still apply to the tier list for mirrors, because in a mirror, "this character has x tools that are good and x tools that are bad, and the opponent also has the exact same tools." So it would still be even, even just looking at how easy it is for a character to win. Because how can you say x character can win over another character easily/less easily without taking into account the other character's tools and what they can do/ can't do to you?
ToastCrust Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Guys, just stop. The thing jiyuna is talking about doesn't apply at all to how the current match up chart works. Rather than making a complaint about mirror match ups not being featured in this chart, he's criticizing the intrinsic nature of the assumptions of our chart. The Dustloop chart functions upon the assumption that, leaving the character as the only variable factor (the players are of hypothetical equal skill--both player PERFECTLY with 100% match up knowledge). The human factor is taken out. The methodology jiyuna is supporting, which he says is the way the Japanese do it, is the analysis of a match up from the view point of any arbitrary player (of adequate skill), against any other arbitrary player (not necessarily of equal skill). It's an appraisal, not of the relative strength of ultimate advantages of the said player, but the necessary effort and knowledge required to win with that character. In which case, a Ragna mirror takes less effort and knowledge to win than a Lambda mirror, because in the former you play identically as you would against any other character, while for the latter you must learn and use strategies and combos you would not usually use for any other match up to be competitive. Basically, the tier lists becomes not "Which character is statistically the most likely to win a tournament assuming the players all play perfectly" but "How easy is it for me to become competitive with this character, relative to the other characters?"
Klaige Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 The real lols is the amount of bickering going on over a chart that will be COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT in just over a month.
Black Onslaught Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 lot of morton in this thread about jiyuna trollin i ain't even mad
Sahgren Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Didn't really understand it until Toast explained it. I'm just wondering how this impacts our current chart or any chart we make in the future (should we make a separate tier chart once CS2 comes out etc.).
ZONG_one Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Jiyuna, excellent post re: mirror matchups and respective numbers for said mirrors. I learned something. <3
zeth07 Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 lot of morton in this thread about jiyuna trollin i ain't even mad I'm sorry but if they are troll posts, he spent a little too much time typing them out AND responding to not think that that's how he really feels and not just posting it to troll. People can't tell the difference between actual discussion and trolling, I guess that's one of the problems around here. (If he really was trolling, then props for at least taking the time to type that.)
ZONG_one Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Lol you guys are trolling yourselves wondering if Jiyuna is trolling. He lives in Japan, yes. But he was gdlk when he lived here anyway, it doesn't matter where the fuck he's from. He said something (and explained it in great detail) that makes perfect sense. Learn to read scrubs.
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