feri Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 - Run away if Carl pushes the doll towards you. When backed into the corner teleport through to the other side (Carl isnt quick enough to punish this without leaving doll on the other side). - Snipe him with j.ds as he approaches to force Carl into blockstun. It'll stop the doll from attacking, moving and potentially a chance for some free meter and curse (Carl is bufferring lots of directional inputs when trying to approach - otherwise not blocking). - Carl cannot punish Arakune properly for clouding (especially after a DJ into allegretto combo). Nirvana 623d CAN catch you but she can only camp half the screen, just take the other side (shes not fast and the teleports have lag). - Homing cloud is absolutely bonkers in this matchup. - 2d forces Carl to jump. Carl cannot dash jump to punish safely on a guess he needs to yomi that shit and IAD j.2c allecan/IAD j.2c kara throw. - Arakune's backdash will get him out of situations other characters can't. - Fucked up damage. - Very dangerous reversal super.
Henaki Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 It might seem tough from the ragna's point of view, but he doesn't understand what the carl player is going through, I'll explain. Once you get in on carl, he has 0 defensive options. You can vivace out, yes, but you can also be easily hit out of vivace. Very rarely are carls going to go for a counter hit when he is being pressured away from nirvana. Cause even if we IB most characters are too far away to counter with 5a so you use 5b. Yes you can 5b IAD j2c allecan and then summon nirvana, but this is where character differences come in. Ragna can DP carl out of his resets. Since a carl is most likely going to use 5b to counter hit when under pressure, you just have to look for the slight delay and DP. This is all assuming that the carl gets a chance to counter hit in the first place. The first thing on a carls mind under pressure is barrier block, block accordingly, and get out. Trying to counter hit is wayyyyy too dangerous and is actually the last thing on a carl's mind against some characters. All characters can pressure carl how ever they want when he is away from nirvana, not reckless rushdown ofcourse. What makes 1 character more dangerous from the other is the kind of rush down they have. There are 2 cases here. Case 1 "The thank god for barrier or else it would be complete rape" Bang's rush down is actually godly against carl. What save's carl from being raped is barrier blocking. It pushes bang just far enough for carl to escape. Same for litchi, even though her range is good barrier helps get her off carl, unless you're in the corner, then barrier doesn't matter. Then again litchi was built around corner rape so that is understandable. But these two are examples but there are more. Case 2 "Uh oh, barrier only works sometimes" My first example is tager. Characters with DP's/bang's guardpoint/hakumen's counter don't know how hard it is to avoid tagers 5a mash/sledge stuff during magnetism. Barrier only really works on tager when your're not magnetized. Once your magnetized, and he gets you in his sledge/5a mash crap, you have to vivace out or it will end quickly. You can get a counter hit obviously, but the risk vs reward is not in carl's favor. Even if you vivace out, you're still within tagers "pull you in range", so you're not completely off the hook. The second example is Ragna. This is also why he is more dangerous to carl than bang or litchi, even though those two characters have very good rushdown as well. Barrier blocking works on ragna, only when you're not in the corner. Once he gets you in the corner, it almost feels like "litchi corner rape". Even if you Barrier and IB to get out, you're still within his range, add that to the fact even if you barrier and push him far enough he can just "Dead Spike" to keep you put, no vivace or jumping for carl, and he'll slightly dash in and continue pressure. It can also be hard to predict when he'll do gauntlet hades and you dare not try and punish him after wards with carl unless you IBed it, so it's a free "get in on carl and start pressure" tool. Most ragna mains may not realize this, but ragna is very quick, especially to carl, and when you give a very quick character that much range with attack speed, it makes for a dealdly combination against very fragile, 0 defense, I'm helpless alone type characters. Also, ragna ending his belial edge combos in the corner with 22C is also the bane of carl. You have to play tech roll mind games with carl to escape pressure. Tech rolling favors him more than any character in the game once you get him away from nirvana. Techrolling the right way, especially forward or backwards, is the difference from getting back behind nirvana or landing back under pressure. He can also DP carl out of his resets. This is also a big problem. That's why ragna is dangerous. It might seem even to the ragna player, but IMO, he doesn't understand what the carl has to go through to win. I use nirvana as a zoning tool all the time, and I force people to have to take risk. The problem with this is, this is only possible to a certain degree, and the degree is dependent on the character. When you get a life lead on some characters like haku, tager, rachel, etc, them coming to you puts carl in a "win" situation. With a fuzzy spot being put specifically on tager, he can turn the match around in an instant with that backdash. Whereas for others, them coming to you doesn't really give carl any advantage at all really cause of the kind of characters they are: quick, range, how easily the outprioritize carl, etc. Ragna, bang, taokaka, etc come to mind. They can get to carl real easily. In the vid of Dio (carl) vs Kaqn (ragna), Kaqn crushed dio, and I wasn't surprised at all. I've experienced it first hand. He easily got by nirvana, pushed dio to the corner, and it was game over. Ofcourse that doesn't mean that that's how the match will always go, but from the vids I've seen of carl's beating ragna's, from my pov, it's either a) the ragna didn't know how to fight carl. Not DPing after the slight 5b delay, although that one is a bit fuzzy. Carl can IAD j2C allecan off 5a/2a/5b/2a-5a/5a-2a/2a-5a-5b so simply DPing after a 5b slight delay can be dangerous, and is understandable. b) Rushed in blindly thinking once the got in and put carl in blockstun they have the advantage c) When they do get in, they think they can just do what ever they want, not realizing that although a carl is not likely to counter, and would rather get out first, he still can and will counter when given the opportunity. So they just pressure away recklessly. 4) They don't end their belial edge combos with 22C all the time and pressure with dead spike when carl barrier blocks. This puts carl back in the spot where is doesn't want to be, in the corner under pressure once more. Kaqn played dio very patiently, going in at the right time, which is very easy for ragna btw. The ragnas that do beat carls in the vids know how to get in, and when they do, they belial 22C carl to death. Ofcourse that's not to say carl can't beat a patient ragna, it's just really really tough especially when the ragna knows exactly what to do. That's why, imo, the match can't be even. At worse 6-4, at best 6.5-3.5 or 7-3. you suck
Zero000 Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 It might seem tough from the ragna's point of view, but he doesn't understand what the carl player is going through, I'll explain. Once you get in on carl, he has 0 defensive options. You can vivace out, yes, but you can also be easily hit out of vivace. Very rarely are carls going to go for a counter hit when he is being pressured away from nirvana. Cause even if we IB most characters are too far away to counter with 5a so you use 5b. Yes you can 5b IAD j2c allecan and then summon nirvana, but this is where character differences come in. Ragna can DP carl out of his resets. Since a carl is most likely going to use 5b to counter hit when under pressure, you just have to look for the slight delay and DP. This is all assuming that the carl gets a chance to counter hit in the first place. The first thing on a carls mind under pressure is barrier block, block accordingly, and get out. Trying to counter hit is wayyyyy too dangerous and is actually the last thing on a carl's mind against some characters. All characters can pressure carl how ever they want when he is away from nirvana, not reckless rushdown ofcourse. What makes 1 character more dangerous from the other is the kind of rush down they have. There are 2 cases here. Case 1 "The thank god for barrier or else it would be complete rape" Bang's rush down is actually godly against carl. What save's carl from being raped is barrier blocking. It pushes bang just far enough for carl to escape. Same for litchi, even though her range is good barrier helps get her off carl, unless you're in the corner, then barrier doesn't matter. Then again litchi was built around corner rape so that is understandable. But these two are examples but there are more. Case 2 "Uh oh, barrier only works sometimes" My first example is tager. Characters with DP's/bang's guardpoint/hakumen's counter don't know how hard it is to avoid tagers 5a mash/sledge stuff during magnetism. Barrier only really works on tager when your're not magnetized. Once your magnetized, and he gets you in his sledge/5a mash crap, you have to vivace out or it will end quickly. You can get a counter hit obviously, but the risk vs reward is not in carl's favor. Even if you vivace out, you're still within tagers "pull you in range", so you're not completely off the hook. The second example is Ragna. This is also why he is more dangerous to carl than bang or litchi, even though those two characters have very good rushdown as well. Barrier blocking works on ragna, only when you're not in the corner. Once he gets you in the corner, it almost feels like "litchi corner rape". Even if you Barrier and IB to get out, you're still within his range, add that to the fact even if you barrier and push him far enough he can just "Dead Spike" to keep you put, no vivace or jumping for carl, and he'll slightly dash in and continue pressure. It can also be hard to predict when he'll do gauntlet hades and you dare not try and punish him after wards with carl unless you IBed it, so it's a free "get in on carl and start pressure" tool. Most ragna mains may not realize this, but ragna is very quick, especially to carl, and when you give a very quick character that much range with attack speed, it makes for a dealdly combination against very fragile, 0 defense, I'm helpless alone type characters. Also, ragna ending his belial edge combos in the corner with 22C is also the bane of carl. You have to play tech roll mind games with carl to escape pressure. Tech rolling favors him more than any character in the game once you get him away from nirvana. Techrolling the right way, especially forward or backwards, is the difference from getting back behind nirvana or landing back under pressure. He can also DP carl out of his resets. This is also a big problem. That's why ragna is dangerous. It might seem even to the ragna player, but IMO, he doesn't understand what the carl has to go through to win. I use nirvana as a zoning tool all the time, and I force people to have to take risk. The problem with this is, this is only possible to a certain degree, and the degree is dependent on the character. When you get a life lead on some characters like haku, tager, rachel, etc, them coming to you puts carl in a "win" situation. With a fuzzy spot being put specifically on tager, he can turn the match around in an instant with that backdash. Whereas for others, them coming to you doesn't really give carl any advantage at all really cause of the kind of characters they are: quick, range, how easily the outprioritize carl, etc. Ragna, bang, taokaka, etc come to mind. They can get to carl real easily. In the vid of Dio (carl) vs Kaqn (ragna), Kaqn crushed dio, and I wasn't surprised at all. I've experienced it first hand. He easily got by nirvana, pushed dio to the corner, and it was game over. Ofcourse that doesn't mean that that's how the match will always go, but from the vids I've seen of carl's beating ragna's, from my pov, it's either a) the ragna didn't know how to fight carl. Not DPing after the slight 5b delay, although that one is a bit fuzzy. Carl can IAD j2C allecan off 5a/2a/5b/2a-5a/5a-2a/2a-5a-5b so simply DPing after a 5b slight delay can be dangerous, and is understandable. b) Rushed in blindly thinking once the got in and put carl in blockstun they have the advantage c) When they do get in, they think they can just do what ever they want, not realizing that although a carl is not likely to counter, and would rather get out first, he still can and will counter when given the opportunity. So they just pressure away recklessly. 4) They don't end their belial edge combos with 22C all the time and pressure with dead spike when carl barrier blocks. This puts carl back in the spot where is doesn't want to be, in the corner under pressure once more. Kaqn played dio very patiently, going in at the right time, which is very easy for ragna btw. The ragnas that do beat carls in the vids know how to get in, and when they do, they belial 22C carl to death. Ofcourse that's not to say carl can't beat a patient ragna, it's just really really tough especially when the ragna knows exactly what to do. That's why, imo, the match can't be even. At worse 6-4, at best 6.5-3.5 or 7-3. Good job. you did it
feri Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 A tl dr version - Carls should mash barrier and rolls. - Ragna has large avg damage, this hurts Carl. - Ragna has uppercut. Fun ruiner... - Ragna can freely pressure Carl, can also turtle if he chooses. - Matchup is in Ragna favour. Edit: Please remove the gigantic quotes =( ? Note I dont actually have an opinion (or agree with the above) on Carl vs Ragna. I couldnt care less if its 7-3 or 5-5 as long as the information thats get posted about it is legit. Somebody thats actually knowledgable in the matchup can confirm.
Dacidbro Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 Matchup is in Ragna's favor according to American observers. Lmao.
Henaki Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 HI I PLAY A REALLY HARD CHARACTER AND CANT USE HIM VS A SIMPLE CHARACTER BECAUSE IM TERRIBLE, THE MATCHUP MUST BE WAHH WAHWHH WAHWHAHHKJGLjgaiewri9 jg40 9ijfm <- carl players
Dacidbro Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 And then there's Henaki, taking it to the other extreme of incorrect..
-Ladon- Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 Carl: Eternal Dan tier because we don't know how to play him
ZONG_one Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 HI I PLAY A REALLY HARD CHARACTER AND CANT USE HIM VS A SIMPLE CHARACTER BECAUSE IM TERRIBLE, THE MATCHUP MUST BE WAHH WAHWHH WAHWHAHHKJGLjgaiewri9 jg40 9ijfm <- carl players And then there's Henaki, taking it to the other extreme of incorrect.. I'll just leave it at what Dacid said. Carl: Eternal Dan tier because we don't know how to play him If you don't know how, you learn. He is no where near Dan tier. I win a lot. I know other Carl players who win a lot. I don't know why a discussion of a hard(er) match up/ a match up where you have to work hard(er) means we're complaining about losing. EDIT- - Run away if Carl pushes the doll towards you. When backed into the corner teleport through to the other side (Carl isnt quick enough to punish this without leaving doll on the other side). - Snipe him with j.ds as he approaches to force Carl into blockstun. It'll stop the doll from attacking, moving and potentially a chance for some free meter and curse (Carl is bufferring lots of directional inputs when trying to approach - otherwise not blocking). - Carl cannot punish Arakune properly for clouding (especially after a DJ into allegretto combo). Nirvana 623d CAN catch you but she can only camp half the screen, just take the other side (shes not fast and the teleports have lag). - Homing cloud is absolutely bonkers in this matchup. - 2d forces Carl to jump. Carl cannot dash jump to punish safely on a guess he needs to yomi that shit and IAD j.2c allecan/IAD j.2c kara throw. - Arakune's backdash will get him out of situations other characters can't. - Fucked up damage. - Very dangerous reversal super. This about sums up the problems. Any idea on safer/better approach solutions?
Dacidbro Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 jB the SHIT out of that fucking cotton candy. All day. It's your only attack. Gogogo
feri Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 No, nothing really (I'm sure whatever your doing is fine). You'll eat some form of curse on your way into catching Arakune. Just break his face when you DO get in to make it all worth it. Oh one more thing that I personally really liked. - Throw tech trick to remove a cloud from the screen is a lot less useful (cloud does not instantly go away anymore). Homing clouds will usually be behind you when you actually get a chance to do this and but unfortunately throw tech sends you backwards right into it. The Cloud that follows Arakune is generally never too far when you grab him too... If my eyes don't deceive me I believe they are even active after he misses his throw tech. Its kinda dumb.
ZONG_one Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 jB the SHIT out of that fucking cotton candy. All day. It's your only attack. Gogogo Lol, for as good as the FCH is, the move just doesn't have that much priority. On trade, it's almost useless, except it prevents oki.
AudioCG Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 Wow, Tager got buffed hard............ and hes still bottom tier, lol. I still love him. (no homo)
Henaki Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 he wasnt buffed a lot (and in fact received a somewhat hefty damage nerf), but the absolute toppest characters were nerfed and characters that were already beating him got buffed more than he did.
ZONG_one Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 Overall, Tager is better than CT. But no, he did not get a huge buff.
A.X.I.S. Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 Wow, Tager got buffed hard............ and hes still bottom tier, lol. I still love him. (no homo) bottom B tier yes...better than CT tier. and that damage nerf bites, give us back CT damage and it still won't make much a difference now would it? also i thought the tagers agreed ragna vs tager is 6-4...he's still gay.
ZONG_one Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 bottom B tier yes...better than CT tier. and that damage nerf bites, give us back CT damage and it still won't make much a difference now would it? also i thought the tagers agreed ragna vs tager is 6-4...he's still gay. Lol, seems like 8-2 Ragna's favor. So dumb.
ZONG_one Posted March 4, 2010 Posted March 4, 2010 Maybe if the Tager is bad. :| Lol, sorry. I thought the meow face indicated sarcasm. Wrong use of emote =
A.X.I.S. Posted March 5, 2010 Posted March 5, 2010 oi how is tager vs tao 4.5? i'm questioning this whole chart! -scrubbing it for life- last i checked tao can dance around and 6C tager for free.
Prototype909 Posted March 5, 2010 Posted March 5, 2010 oi how is tager vs tao 4.5? i'm questioning this whole chart! -scrubbing it for life- last i checked tao can dance around and 6C tager for free. Well, doesn't Tao have 9K HP now? That might contribute to that.
smooshman Posted March 5, 2010 Posted March 5, 2010 oi how is tager vs tao 4.5? i'm questioning this whole chart! -scrubbing it for life- last i checked tao can dance around and 6C tager for free. you're complaining how your main's matchup should be worse...
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