CrimsonDisaster Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Getting hit by a single Jin 236A/B/C is hardly comparable to getting hit by Ragna 5C xx HF. There are like 2-3 characters who even have combo starters at that range, and none of them are as safe to poke with as Ragna's 5C (except Tager Spark Bolt, which you don't always have access to). The only reason "nobody really considers" Ragna lifesteal here is because they are stealing combos from Japanese players who are already doing max lifesteal combos. Ladon, it isn't a waste to burn 50% on 2D RC for safe pressure with potential payoff when you consider that Ragna can get like 50-70% meter for some of his combos. That 2D RC might lead to you pretty much getting all that meter back anyhow. At the very least, it means your opponent can't just wait for you to push yourself out and then not worry about anything you do anymore.
Dacidbro Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Not to mention they add more meter when you just rapided..
Spirit Juice Posted March 31, 2010 Author Posted March 31, 2010 2D RC into double BE combo = 36 meter. 2D without RC into double BE combo = 43 meter. Not sure where you're getting 70 meter from, considering double BE combos are pretty much the standard meter gain combos. HF RC combos are 3.3k damage and gain somewhere around 40 meter, and that's with a double BE combo. 3.3k damage for 50% meter isn't enough to bump him to S rank in average damage.
MisoSowee Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Btw SJ are you making a new thread for this? and on another note: I'm not even sure haku needs 100% meter to do 100% dmg on some characters. Of course that's off a 6c full charge, fatal counter, but I just wanted to throw that out there. Oh and don't quote me on that, I could be totally mistaken. 6c full charge and counter IS ridiculous damage though, even if it's not 100% you could probably get a good 70% for only a couple of stars, more if you're in the corner and/or willing to spend extra meter.
zeth07 Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Btw SJ are you making a new thread for this? and on another note: I'm not even sure haku needs 100% meter to do 100% dmg on some characters. Of course that's off a 6c full charge, fatal counter, but I just wanted to throw that out there. Oh and don't quote me on that, I could be totally mistaken. 6c full charge and counter IS ridiculous damage though, even if it's not 100% you could probably get a good 70% for only a couple of stars, more if you're in the corner and/or willing to spend extra meter. He can also do those "death combos" off a regular Drive Counter as long as he has "100%". Much like Bang's average damage, I also don't see how he can have the same Max Damage rating as Hakumen especially when you wanted to consider the practical use of it and the pure "max damage" numbers. Also, the reasoning for Bang's S rating (EDIT: for Max Damage) doesn't really stand out as S rating material compared to Hakumen / Arakune. Especially since there was no mention of FRKZ which is where Bang's big damage / max damage combos really come from. It isn't that far-fetched to see the Arakune max damage combos since we do see them a lot in the Japanese videos, and the Hakumen ones could still be viable if he decides to play defensively (which he is more than capable of doing so). While Bang's max damage or really huge damage come off something even more situational, in fact there has been only 1 real occasion (from videos) where we really see HUGE damage from Bang. It was off of a j.4C CH on Hakumen during FRKZ (50% initial heat) and had Ashura at the end (50%) and it still didn't break 8k. And that was ONE time we've seen that kind of damage and it was completely situational.
SimpleKiss Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Hakumen Death combos are pretty situational. I know there was a pretty popular haku vid a while back where he did it to several people in a row... But, it was so obvious that hakumen was sandbagging just to get it off on obviously less skilled players.
zeth07 Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Hakumen Death combos are pretty situational. I know there was a pretty popular haku vid a while back where he did it to several people in a row... But, it was so obvious that hakumen was sandbagging just to get it off on obviously less skilled players. I guess I was just going by the numbers, Arakune / Hakumen can break 10k, while some of the other characters are a few thousand damage behind and still just as situational.
OrionXElite Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Most things yes, bolded no and a half The reason Tager loses matches and in bottom tier is because he gets overrun and zoned out SO bad. Ok so I guess I was going a little too far into the theoretical realm. Yes Tager gets zoned like a bitch but it doesn't take away from the fact that like I said, you only need ONE opening to get in with Tager against the likes of Litchi and Lambda and Arakune and you can wreck havoc on them. Again this is theory here so I suppose I should add in a rebuttal on the defensive properties logically... Yeah you can try and Sledge through Arakune's bugs and clouds but the bugs just catch you on start up and then you die...Lambda can just pressure the shit out of him and wait for a random Sledge and get 4k off of it and Litchi can do the same and get like 4-4.5k with obvious exceptions in pressure due to the fact Litchi actually has to be somewhat close to Tager to start anything. So yeah...Maybe I shouldn't have gone so philosophical with it...
Dacidbro Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Ok so I guess I was going a little too far into the theoretical realm. Yes Tager gets zoned like a bitch but it doesn't take away from the fact that like I said, you only need ONE opening to get in with Tager against the likes of Litchi and Lambda and Arakune and you can wreck havoc on them. Again this is theory here so I suppose I should add in a rebuttal on the defensive properties logically... Yeah you can try and Sledge through Arakune's bugs and clouds but the bugs just catch you on start up and then you die...Lambda can just pressure the shit out of him and wait for a random Sledge and get 4k off of it and Litchi can do the same and get like 4-4.5k with obvious exceptions in pressure due to the fact Litchi actually has to be somewhat close to Tager to start anything. So yeah...Maybe I shouldn't have gone so philosophical with it... All I was talking about is his Defense is only moderate, especially for a character with no mobility. Never going to argue with his explosiveness.
Dacidbro Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 2D RC into double BE combo = 36 meter. 2D without RC into double BE combo = 43 meter. Not sure where you're getting 70 meter from, considering double BE combos are pretty much the standard meter gain combos. HF RC combos are 3.3k damage and gain somewhere around 40 meter, and that's with a double BE combo. 3.3k damage for 50% meter isn't enough to bump him to S rank in average damage. ...
Eshi Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 This was a quite informative, thanks for your efforts SJ! Just curious. What characters in CS are in a good place in terms of balance and feeling "complete"? Considering the possibility of a balance update for the console release, what are some of the individual aspects of litchi/bang/rachel/etc. that should be addressed to fix them? I'm mostly curious about bang, I know the least about him. (Directed to everyone not just SJ)
smooshman Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 This was a quite informative, thanks for your efforts SJ! Just curious. What characters in CS are in a good place in terms of balance and feeling "complete"? Considering the possibility of a balance update for the console release, what are some of the individual aspects of litchi/bang/rachel/etc. that should be addressed to fix them? I'm mostly curious about bang, I know the least about him. (Directed to everyone not just SJ) yanked from CS discussion Anyways, here's a list of characters that are on the right direction of balance (i.e. only need some minor tweaks): Ragna Hazama Lambda Arakune Hakumen Carl Taokaka Tager Jin In short, these are characters that don't have anything in particular about them that is in drastic need of change. Minor tweaks will balance them just fine.
KayEff Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 yanked from CS discussion are you sure you want to do that
smooshman Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 are you sure you want to do that it's from a bit before it got super stupid.
Spirit Juice Posted March 31, 2010 Author Posted March 31, 2010 Ok so I guess I was going a little too far into the theoretical realm. Yes Tager gets zoned like a bitch but it doesn't take away from the fact that like I said, you only need ONE opening to get in with Tager against the likes of Litchi and Lambda and Arakune and you can wreck havoc on them. Again this is theory here so I suppose I should add in a rebuttal on the defensive properties logically... Yeah you can try and Sledge through Arakune's bugs and clouds but the bugs just catch you on start up and then you die...Lambda can just pressure the shit out of him and wait for a random Sledge and get 4k off of it and Litchi can do the same and get like 4-4.5k with obvious exceptions in pressure due to the fact Litchi actually has to be somewhat close to Tager to start anything. So yeah...Maybe I shouldn't have gone so philosophical with it... All I was talking about is his Defense is only moderate, especially for a character with no mobility. Never going to argue with his explosiveness. Makes me wonder if you guys read how I broke down and ranked each category. :P Defense =/= defensive options. Defense only refers to health, guard primers, and hit boxes. The one for GGAC was ranked in a similar way, going by defensive modifier, gravity, and hit box. ... Don't ask me, I just work here. Not sure where the idea that you gain more meter after RCing in a combo came from, but that's definitely not the case here. It might have been that way in CT, but it doesn't appear that way in CS.
-Ladon- Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Getting hit by a single Jin 236A/B/C is hardly comparable to getting hit by Ragna 5C xx HF. There are like 2-3 characters who even have combo starters at that range, and none of them are as safe to poke with as Ragna's 5C (except Tager Spark Bolt, which you don't always have access to). The only reason "nobody really considers" Ragna lifesteal here is because they are stealing combos from Japanese players who are already doing max lifesteal combos. Ladon, it isn't a waste to burn 50% on 2D RC for safe pressure with potential payoff when you consider that Ragna can get like 50-70% meter for some of his combos. That 2D RC might lead to you pretty much getting all that meter back anyhow. At the very least, it means your opponent can't just wait for you to push yourself out and then not worry about anything you do anymore. 5B-HF-RC-6D pressure game is much better, you can whiff the j.d to cause a mixup, hit with j.d and do a quick 5/2A-5B-low/mid mixup options, there's no reason to waste 50% meter on a poke that doesn't let you gain any ground or setup into other options, ragna needs to be inside at all times otherwise he has no pressure except safe 5B pokes. nobody considers life steal a factor because while it's happening in the fight, if you haven't been hit yet, you can't go over a 10k hp cap that you have, so life steal is negated, that's why I've always said ragna has an average of about 11k as long as he's doing long combos with 4-5 D hits, and BK really doesn't net more health anymore unless you do a fatal BK loop, in which case you gain maybe 1k back. when was 5C "safe" to poke with? it's horrible on recovery, and it's cancels are even worse options barring a close 2C for +1 on block. Jin's ice car combos at least net him a solid knockdown and not a half screen knockback that you have to rezone into. I don't know where 5C was suddenly safe considering it's gatlings on block are very limited and not safe.
Dacidbro Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Makes me wonder if you guys read how I broke down and ranked each category. :P Defense =/= defensive options. Defense only refers to health, guard primers, and hit boxes. The one for GGAC was ranked in a similar way, going by defensive modifier, gravity, and hit box. Don't ask me, I just work here. Not sure where the idea that you gain more meter after RCing in a combo came from, but that's definitely not the case here. It might have been that way in CT, but it doesn't appear that way in CS. Was just replying to the stuff that Orion said about defense, figured it was important to rebut Yeah, in CT, when you used meter, you gained extra meter for a period of time.. now it seems it actually slows down meter for a bit?
Dacidbro Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 when was 5C "safe" to poke with? it's horrible on recovery, and it's cancels are even worse options barring a close 2C for +1 on block. Jin's ice car combos at least net him a solid knockdown and not a half screen knockback that you have to rezone into. I don't know where 5C was suddenly safe considering it's gatlings on block are very limited and not safe. If you let it cancel itself, you can cancel to special at any time, giving you the option of an extremely late GH (would be odd, but available), HF, or even DP punish if they try to do stuff. It's very safe.
-Ladon- Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 If you let it cancel itself, you can cancel to special at any time, giving you the option of an extremely late GH (would be odd, but available), HF, or even DP punish if they try to do stuff. It's very safe. nothing you said is a safe option, but ok
Dacidbro Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 No, they aren't, but they make 5C itself safe. You would have to screw up twice.
-Ladon- Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 No, they aren't, but they make 5C itself safe. You would have to screw up twice. you could just poke with 5B and not cancel it, which is safer. nothing makes 5C completely safe after it's out there unless(like I said) you do a close 2C, in which case you're not poking with it. case in point: 5C isn't safe, why are people talking like it is
Dacidbro Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Hey, the next time you literally punish someone for their 5C, you tell me, alright? Very little works, and you're liable to get fatal'd for it too. It's really, really hard to punish. More power to you if you succeed. And 2D is a quick gatling that makes you die for trying to punish it too.
-Ladon- Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Hey, the next time you literally punish someone for their 5C, you tell me, alright? Very little works, and you're liable to get fatal'd for it too. It's really, really hard to punish. More power to you if you succeed. considering you're taking followups into account, IB an HF, GH doesn't even need to be mentioned considering how many ways you can punish it, and I don't even wanna go near a "delayed ID" after 5C. what's unsafe is unsafe, whether you're punishing it or not is up to your playing ragna isn't gaining ground after 5C pokes even if you can't punish it, so what are you worried about? he has very limited options from 5b-5c range and only one of them involve getting in safe -if he has meter-. I'm not questioning your ability to punish someone, and I'm pretty sure no one is going to flawlessly punish something unsafe 100% of the time, but the numbers are there, and what's not safe is not safe. we're talking about 5C poke range into HF, not 2C range. about 2D: if we're talking about punishment on reaction, 2D is probably the biggest example. I honestly don't know how 2D became such a great poke from CT when NOTHING CHANGED. As much as I hate to use it as an example, even online you could block and punish 2Ds with shitty lag, and it's startup time is god awful as well.
klops Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 If you let it cancel itself, you can cancel to special at any time, giving you the option of an extremely late GH (would be odd, but available), HF, or even DP punish if they try to do stuff. It's very safe. what is this i dont even
ShinsoBEAM Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Hey, the next time you literally punish someone for their 5C, you tell me, alright? Very little works, and you're liable to get fatal'd for it too. It's really, really hard to punish. More power to you if you succeed. And 2D is a quick gatling that makes you die for trying to punish it too. So you can('t) punish it cool I don't care, against most of the cast you made your spacing worse though, and gave the other character some time to set something up. Basically what benefits do you gain if they just you know...block.
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