[CS1] Hazama Combo Thread

[Fireryda]

It works mid-screen. It's just REALLY REALLY hard to get yourself in position.

I'm trying to test the 7k but i'm only barely breaking it atm. I'm thinking too much proration due to the massive amount of chains I'm using. (6D~Ax3, 6D~Ax3 > 6D~D) 7 ouroboros' ...

It's really hard because the AI just loves to air dash over me and put themselves in the corner..

236236B (FC) > (Adjust) [6D~A x 3] > 623D > (Dash) 3C > 236236B > (Adjust) > [6D~Ax2] 6D~D > j.214B# = 6982 damage. 214D~C follow up is still 6641.

*Goes to test 5c starter*

5C > 236236B > (adjust) 6D~Ax3 > 623D > (dash) 3c > 236236B > (adjust) 6D~A x2 >6D~D > j.214b# = 7940 damage. Possible to break the 8k barrier in corner

And according to the frame data, no reason not to start with 5C unless FC/yomi/reversal since it has 100% proration as a starter In other words, if you land the 5c and can react fast enough, JAYOKU!!

[Eclipse]

It works mid-screen. It's just REALLY REALLY hard to get yourself in position.

I'm trying to test the 7k but i'm only barely breaking it atm. I'm thinking too much proration due to the massive amount of chains I'm using. (6D~Ax3, 6D~Ax3 > 6D~D) 7 ouroboros' ...

It's really hard because the AI just loves to air dash over me and put themselves in the corner..

236236B (FC) > (Adjust) [6D~A x 3] > 623D > (Dash) 3C > 236236B > (Adjust) > [6D~Ax2] 6D~D > j.214B# = 6982 damage. 214D~C follow up is still 6641.

*Goes to test 5c starter*

5C > 236236B > (adjust) 6D~Ax3 > 623D > (dash) 3c > 236236B > (adjust) 6D~A x2 >6D~D > j.214b# = 7940 damage. Possible to break the 8k barrier in corner

And according to the frame data, no reason not to start with 5C unless FC/yomi/reversal since it has 100% proration as a starter In other words, if you land the 5c and can react fast enough, JAYOKU!!

Interesting, so starting with 5C really does nothing but add more damage, since its proration is 100%, awesome. Anyways, thanks for clearing that up. And I don't think you can use 6D~A x 3 on all characters after a non-FC Jayoku. So breaking 8K may only be possible on some characters. 7.5K is still nothing to scoff at though.

Also, for the other combo you found the damage figure for:

214D~B (CH) > (Adjust) [6D~A x 2] > 623D > (Dash) 3C > 236236B > (Adjust) 214D~C > 5C > 2C > 4D~D > j.214B# *50 Heat*

Damage: ~3706

How can that be correct when:

214D~B (FC) > (Adjust) [6D~A x 3] > 623D > 2B > 5C > 2C > 4D~D > j.214B#

Damage: ~4090

It baffles my mind that adding a Distortion Drive mid-combo lowers the damage of the entire combo. The proration must really be strange in this game. Or it could be minor factors like how many Ouroboros chains connect, etc.

Anyone want to clarify this for me? I plan on testing it out to make sure that figure wasn't wrong. But so far you've been right, and I really trust your judgment.

[Fireryda]

Hmm. I'll test it again. That looks wrong too.. might've been an error on my part.

Also you can do 6D~Ax3 on all characters in the corner except maybe Carl. I did it on Noel so i'm pretty sure it'll work. afaik, only Lambda has a wierder hitbox. I can't seem to get my 5B>3C>214D~A>5A combo off on her. The 214D~A just whiffs.. it works on everybody else albeit with really hard timing except tager and rachel because you can OTG them with 214D~A

[Fireryda]

214D~B (FC) prorates at 75%

214D~B (CH) prorates at 60%

From a CH only using one 6D~A (6D~A x2 is hard, gotta have a close CH and do the A cancel fast otherwise it'll bluebeat) i got ~3500 damage so the figures look about correct. Proration difference is massive and Jayoku prorates really wierd. In a combo its damage goes down the drain but outside of a combo it's pretty damn high. Even after a 5C it doesn't add as much damage solo.

[Fireryda]

More damage checks

Mid-Screen

5B (CH) > 6A > 236236B > (Adjust) 214D~C > 5C > 2C > 4D~D > j.214B# *50 Heat*

Damage = 3680

*note 5B>236236B = 4020 - 5B>3C>236236B = 4006

Stylish

5B > 3C > 214D~C > (Dash) 5C > 2C > [4D~A x 2] > 623D > 632146C *50 Heat*

Damage = 4108

*note 5C>3C = 4233 - 5C(2hits) > 3C = 4432

*5c is better as it does more damage and pushes them away allowing for the 623D to connect if the (dash) 5c is done too early

214D~B (CH) > (Back Jump) j.6D~D > 5C > 2C > 4D~A > 4D~D > j.214B#

Damage = 2037

Ah.. forgot 5C was 2 hits so that changes alot of the damage values.. probably only slightly by around 100-200.

Well time to get some damage figures for 5c starters and some approximate heat figures

BnB's

5C(2 hits) > 3C > 214D~C > (Dash) 5C(2 hits) > 2C > 4D~A > 4D~D > j.214B#

Damage = 3270 - 36 heat

5C(2 hits) > 3C > 214D~C > (Dash) 5C(2 hits) > (JC) [j.C x 5] > (Land) 2C > 4D~D > j.214B#

Damage = 3216 - 43 heat

[Wolf Pup TK]

I think that starting with 5C is good because Jayoku's combo pro-ration is WAY better than it's starting pro-ration!

P1 = 70

P2 = 94

I'm not sure though, if the better pro-ration makes up for not being able to get in the additional 6D~A from getting a FC.

Even after a 5C it doesn't add as much damage solo.

Wait, seriously? So if you d 5C > 236236B, the Jayoku does less than 2500 dmg?

[Fireryda]

Starting with 5C is also very good because Jayoku's combo pro-ration is WAY better than it's starting pro-ration!

P1 = 70

P2 = 94

Also, 5C has single-pro-ration even when both of the daggers hit.

I'm not sure though, if the better pro-ration makes up for not being able to get in the additional 6D~A from getting a FC.

It doesn't. It all depends on positioning. You want to nab them in the head with the 6D~A at the closest range you get hit-stun in. Hard to describe but after a Jayoku it's about 1-2 steps backwards.

Because you hit them in the head, everytime you cancel with A they go higher a bit and since you're close you'll be able to chain 3. Depending on their height you either cancel last chain into 623D or ~A > 623D for height. If you hit it too early you'll only be able to land 2 since the last chain will whiff. If you're too far, it'll bluebeat.

[PhantomX]

I'm having issues getting Noel into fthrow > 6D> Jakou.

[Wolf Pup TK]

It doesn't. It all depends on positioning. You want to nab them in the head with the 6D~A at the closest range you get hit-stun in. Hard to describe but after a Jayoku it's about 1-2 steps backwards.

Because you hit them in the head, everytime you cancel with A they go higher a bit and since you're close you'll be able to chain 3. Depending on their height you either cancel last chain into 623D or ~A > 623D for height. If you hit it too early you'll only be able to land 2 since the last chain will whiff. If you're too far, it'll bluebeat.

I thought that however many 6Ds you can get (with appropriate spacing), you can always get one more if you landed a FC?

[Fireryda]

I'm having issues getting Noel into fthrow > 6D> Jakou.

6D~A > jakou should do it if you're doing the 6D fast enough. Her hitbox is wierd, you gotta throw it out on the first active frame pretty much. You'll see that it looks like the chain isn't even touching her when it connects. Its possible to do 6D>Jakou but i find 6D~A more reliable. It's really at the edge of the jakou range so if you do it too late it'll just whiff.

I thought that however many 6Ds you can get (with appropriate spacing), you can always get one more if you landed a FC?

Yep. afaik FC adds +2f untechable time to every hit in a combo. If you tried without the FC and are doing it almost perfectly you'll find that they can tech out before the last chain hits them.

[PhantomX]

Ah, ok, it's just a timing issue, then. Wasn't sure if it was doable or not after that. 6D~A > Jakou and 6D > Jakou have no difference at all between them, except for an extra input, haha.

[Eclipse]

214D~B (FC) prorates at 75%

214D~B (CH) prorates at 60%

From a CH only using one 6D~A (6D~A x2 is hard, gotta have a close CH and do the A cancel fast otherwise it'll bluebeat) i got ~3500 damage so the figures look about correct. Proration difference is massive and Jayoku prorates really wierd. In a combo its damage goes down the drain but outside of a combo it's pretty damn high. Even after a 5C it doesn't add as much damage solo.

So, the damage figure for Jayoku mid-combo was correct? The 214D~B (CH) one? *Just making sure.*

Also, have you tried 6D~A x 3 on Jin without a FC? I can never quite seem to pull it off, but it's probably my timing.

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I'm a little confused too about the proration of Jayoku Houtenjin. Is it's combo proration actually higher? And starting with 5C should add more damage to Jayoku since the proration of 5C is 100% I believe.

But you mentioned this "Even after a 5C it doesn't add as much damage solo." Which shouldn't be the case if 5C's proration is 100%.

Just to avoid conclusion, my main question is:

Is Jayoku Houtenjin's combo proration actually higher mid-combo, so the follow up attacks after it do more?

Edit: I think I've figured it out. Using 5C before Jayoku creates a higher damage outcome for the entire combo since Jayoku has 94 proration mid-combo. However, if you plan on using Jayoku alone, it'll do more damage than 5C > 236236B because although 5C's proration is 100%. Jayoku lowers it's own proration mid-combo. I forgot about the third type of proration.... Ugh, this proration stuff has got my head spinning. Well, now I'm off to take my last final of the semester. *Still surprised everyone is up so early.*

[Fireryda]

Ah, ok, it's just a timing issue, then. Wasn't sure if it was doable or not after that. 6D~A > Jakou and 6D > Jakou have no difference at all between them, except for an extra input, haha.

Slightly delayed Jakou It works for me sometimes when they're too low when i'm chaining my 6D~A's after a Jayoku.

If you go 6D > 623D the jakou comes out pretty much instantly.

Doing a 6D~A you'll see that when they get released from the chain they fly up slightly. Since you cancelled with A you can Jakou and it'll grab them. You don't need to do it on a neutral throw but other situations it's helpful to know

Though if they're at the edge of your 6D range you won't be able to grab them either way.

1.So, the damage figure for Jayoku mid-combo was correct? The 214D~B (CH) one? *Just making sure.*

2. Also, have you tried 6D~A x 3 on Jin without a FC? I can never quite seem to pull it off, but it's probably my timing.

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I'm a little confused too about the proration of Jayoku Houtenjin. Is it's combo proration actually higher? And starting with 5C should add more damage to Jayoku since the proration of 5C is 100% I believe.

But you mentioned this "Even after a 5C it doesn't add as much damage solo." Which shouldn't be the case if 5C's proration is 100%.

Just to avoid conclusion, my main questions are:

3.Is Jayoku Houtenjin's combo proration actually higher mid-combo, so the follow up attacks after it do more?

4.Is using 5C before Jayoku always recommended since it has 100% proration? (I don't see how it would do less damage than a solo Jayoku.)

I'm pretty sure I'm right about the second question, though I could be wrong, as usual.

1.Yep it's right. Proration completely ruins the damage

2.Yeah but it's hard. It's alot more stricter than other characters. You're probably not A cancelling fast enough or you're not at the most optimal range.

IMO in order of difficulty from easiest to hardest

Tager - Rachel - Arakune - Hakumen, Bang - Ragna, Tsubaki - Litchi, Taokaka, Lambda, Jin, Hazama - Noel - Carl.

3. According to the frame data it says Jayoku does 2500 by itself. After comboing from a 5C I think it did 2216 which is a bit strange. The reason a 5C starter does more damage is because it has its 100% proration applied instead of Jayoku's 70% (which I'm not sure is right.) Jayoku has a 94% proration in a combo so it's really good for extending damage which is why combos with Jayoku are so high.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but afaik for P1 and P2.

P1 is the proration the move has on other attacks if it's used as a starter while P2 is the proration mid-combo on subsequent hits. So the 4th unique attack in the combo will have P1 of the 1st attack and P2 of the 2nd and 3rd.

4. Personally I'd just do Jayoku FC since it's much more reliable and you get the FC bonus which is good for a corner combo as it increases the timing window (I still drop it at the 2B sometimes ) or at least keep 50 heat to get you out of those situations unless you can guarantee a kill. But if you wanted to squeeze that extra bit of damage out of a BnB, I would go 5C>3C. Damage is slightly less but you hit-confirm it. If you can hit-confirm 5C > Jayoku go ahead but I feel that the hit-stun is too short for that and I generally put 3C in my attack-strings so I'll be throwing it out anyways.

[PhantomX]

I drop the corner combo at the 2B too... which is funny b/c I have no issues doing the other Jakou followups that are more difficult since I'm not standing at the corner when I do them.

[Eclipse]

I drop the corner combo at the 2B too... which is funny b/c I have no issues doing the other Jakou followups that are more difficult since I'm not standing at the corner when I do them.

Ironically, I have no trouble ever getting the 2B in the corner followup when Jayoku is involved. On the other hand, if I try to use Jakou after a normal BnB and follow up with 2B in the corner... I can never get it.

Thanks for clearing everything up Fieryda. The only thing confusing me now is why...

5C > 236236B = 2216 Damage, and 236236B = 2500 Damage

... when 5C has 100% proration. And yes, just to confirm you're right about "P1 is the proration the move has on other attacks if it's used as a starter while P2 is the proration mid-combo on subsequent hits. So the 4th unique attack in the combo will have P1 of the 1st attack and P2 of the 2nd and 3rd."

Is there some sort of third proration that lowers the damage on a combo, or maybe distortion drives automatically have lowered damage mid-combo. Who knows... Nonetheless, all Jayoku Combos are high damage, and going for the FC is almost always preferred.

Note: Didn't you have a FC Jayoku Houtenjin Combo that was over 7K Fieryda? If so, I plan on adding it immediately.

[Fireryda]

FC Jayoku

236236B > 6D~Ax3 > 6D > 623D > (dash) 3C > 236236B > 6D~Ax2 > 6D~D > j.214B# = 7039 I think it was.

5C > 236236B > 6D~Ax2 > 6D > 623D > (dash) 3C > 236236B > 6D~Ax2 > 6D~D > j.214B# = 7940

doing a 6D~A follow up is better than 214D~C because it has less proration which means you'll be dishing out more damage with the C mash.

And I'm thinking 236236B isn't actually 2500 damage but probably 2000 which would make alot more sense with the numbers I'm getting during a combo.

I used to be able to get 2B's all the time a week ago but now I can only get them half the time..

[Eclipse]

FC Jayoku

236236B > 6D~Ax3 > 6D > 623D > (dash) 3C > 236236B > 6D~Ax2 > 6D~D > j.214B# = 7039 I think it was.

5C > 236236B > 6D~Ax2 > 6D > 623D > (dash) 3C > 236236B > 6D~Ax2 > 6D~D > j.214B# = 7940

doing a 6D~A follow up is better than 214D~C because it has less proration which means you'll be dishing out more damage with the C mash.

And I'm thinking 236236B isn't actually 2500 damage but probably 2000 which would make alot more sense with the numbers I'm getting during a combo.

I used to be able to get 2B's all the time a week ago but now I can only get them half the time..

I checked the frame data thread, and Jayoku is listed as 2500. Could easily be a typo though. It never seemed like it did that much to me... Even when I used it as the first attack. And yeah, you're right about 6D~A as opposed to 214D~C. You may have brought something revolutionary to Hazama.

Each follow up to 236236B has it's advantages though:

214D~C > 5C > 2C > 4D~A > 4D~D > j.214B# - Higher Heat Gain, *Easier to Pull Off* (For Most People)

6D~A x 3 > j.214B# - Higher Damage due to good proration, Opponent's bursting not nearly as rewarding.

I think I'll mix it up here and there to catch my opponent off guard and take advantage of the "unpredictability" of Hazama.

Also, forgot to mention a few posts ago. Thanks for recommending the 5C starter for the Stylish Combo that goes into Mizuchi Rekkazan, it's higher damage and more practical. I actually created that combo myself in an effort to find a combo that could compete with the Jayoku combos. Of course it fails in the corner, but it's semi-practical mid-screen.

[Fireryda]

Oh sure np. It makes up for my inability to actually play Hazama.

I know all these combos but I can't apply them and just get thrashed because I don't know how to get in on them or defend properly

either that or bang & litchi vs Hazama =

I've been using the 6D~A's alot since i never got the timing down for 214D~C. I just have this feeling with the 6D~A so I know when to press it and i can usually do it 2 times at least. 214D~C follow is quite good because it gives you alot of heat back. I think it was like ~33 vs ~21 or so. Off a FC Jayoku I'm pretty sure you can do 4D~Ax2 as well for more damage which means if you're at like ~90 heat you could do the 214D~C follow up, get to 50 heat and jakou into another Jayoku for fun times

btw

214D~A > 5A > 5B > 3C > 214D~C > 5C > 2C > 4D~A > j.214B# = 1798 damage. No CH needed.

[Eclipse]

Oh sure np. It makes up for my inability to actually play Hazama.

I know all these combos but I can't apply them and just get thrashed because I don't know how to get in on them or defend properly

either that or bang & litchi vs Hazama =

I've been using the 6D~A's alot since i never got the timing down for 214D~C. I just have this feeling with the 6D~A so I know when to press it and i can usually do it 2 times at least. 214D~C follow is quite good because it gives you alot of heat back. I think it was like ~33 vs ~21 or so. Off a FC Jayoku I'm pretty sure you can do 4D~Ax2 as well for more damage which means if you're at like ~90 heat you could do the 214D~C follow up, get to 50 heat and jakou into another Jayoku for fun times

btw

214D~A > 5A > 5B > 3C > 214D~C > 5C > 2C > 4D~A > j.214B# = 1798 damage. No CH needed.

If you're fairly certain on this:

236236B > 6D~Ax3 > 6D > 623D > (dash) 3C > 236236B > 6D~Ax2 > 6D~D > j.214B# = 7039

I'll add it. And yeah, Hazama can be difficult to play. Currently, I just continue to block until an opening then BnB or Jayoku for massive damage. I really want to learn how to do well without turtling though. I can use the drive starters. But I'm pretty horrible at dash canceling into BnB's, etc.

[Fireryda]

I'm not 100% sure on the exact damage but I know it cleared 7k. It was about that much though.

Hopefully he's actually alot more difficult than he seems to be and keep all the spammers away. He's one of the characters that clicked for me so it was rather easy for me to play him. Love his style too.

I can't even dash cancel into BnB's. The best I can do is dash cancel into 3C/2B since the stick at my local arcade is a bit whack and doesn't seem to register my 4 input. Not too hard to work around as he does have other options.

[Eclipse]

I'm not 100% sure on the exact damage but I know it cleared 7k. It was about that much though.

Hopefully he's actually alot more difficult than he seems to be and keep all the spammers away. He's one of the characters that clicked for me so it was rather easy for me to play him. Love his style too.

I can't even dash cancel into BnB's. The best I can do is dash cancel into 3C/2B since the stick at my local arcade is a bit whack and doesn't seem to register my 4 input. Not too hard to work around as he does have other options.

Haha, I have a harder time dash canceling into 3C for some reason. Ah well... And that's my main concern when the console version gets released. I really don't want a bunch of people playing my main since I hate mirror matches. I've always wanted to main Hazama, just because of his personality and appearance. But his fighting style exceeded my expectations and I love chains.

[Fireryda]

When you get to boss Hazama with Rachel he says

"MUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDA"

Incase you don't get where it's from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbArvIqZzkI

I think that's reason enough to play him.

And yeah dash cancelling into 3C is wierd.

I'm not 100% sure but if you do a Jakou from a 4D you won't be able to do the 236236B after the dash 3C since it just hits them too far away since you're on one side of the screen and you're just throwing them further away from you, not towards the wall near you. Not sure about this but thats just the feeling I get.

[PhantomX]

We don't really have to worry about people swarming our character. He's fairly challenging to play, with mediocre mixups/pressure (compared to higher tiers), and mediocre damage output. Why would people play Hazama on console when they could play Bang or Ragna, in particular?

[Eclipse]

We don't really have to worry about people swarming our character. He's fairly challenging to play, with mediocre mixups/pressure (compared to higher tiers), and mediocre damage output. Why would people play Hazama on console when they could play Bang or Ragna, in particular?

Well, most "professionals" will try to pick people from high tiers. True... But he's a new character, and he's stylish, so I feel that everyone will swarm him. I mean, how much rave has Tsubaki received in the past 6 months. To be honest, I don't really care about her myself, haha. Maybe Mu-12 will get more action than Hazama.

[Arifureta]

Two more months before I can play Mu. D:

Everyone will swarm him, and then be like "wtf no dash" and leave. :V