[CS1] Mu-12 General Discussion Thread

[TD]

Ok, so I'll finish up the matchup when I get home. Also, plat along with cs2 is going to cost around 15 dollars altogether. It was confirmed but I forget where.

[FlyingVe]

I regards to CS1 Mu. It depends on what you want, in my humble opinion, Mu is the very worst character that isn't bad. As such, I don't think you could really win a major tournament with her. To much guess work, and despite having a great matchup against Carl and Kune, the other High tiers shit on Mu pretty bad.

Also, CS2 Mu is all about spacing, a little known secret is... so is CS1 Mu. Alot of players are way to into the oki tricks and mix-up and get whooped when it doesn't work.

Edited February 1, 2011 by FlyingVe

[TD]

Ive been telling many people that for so long, its like a broken record. Everything mu has should hit at max range (well her c moves and specials). If one zones too much or attempts a rtsd style they will be blown up, an I'm more than sure ive been proven right for some of the offline players. Now that we finally know how to play mu its like many ppl aren't even taking the incentive to learn it... They're crippling themselves, honestly. I suppose its good to have your style, however...

[Innolis]

Also, CS2 Mu is all about spacing, a little known secret is... so is CS1 Mu. Alot of players are way to into the oki tricks and mix-up and get whooped when it doesn't work.

If you dont mind, I'm gonna try and steer the thread in this direction. I understand that MU is a deceptively difficult character to play properly and I'd really like to invest in her.

That being said, what are your spacing techniques/tricks? how do you condition the opponent to respect you and keep their distance?

[FlyingVe]

This is why Mu is so hard. What is the correct spacing varies on a match-up by matchup basis. For example, You can hold Ragna at fullscreen with a wall of lasers and C, but against Noel (who can move much faster), you ideal range is different. This is something that I don't have down for all the cast, but I feel that you need to treat each match-up differently.

Also, I don't want to downplay the oki too much. There are some characters that I would much rather oki than space out (Hazama, Bang, Carl, and Kune come to mind). In addition, by going into a setup you can change the flow and rhythm of the match and kill somebody off or make an epic comeback. I just recommend that you don't rely on oki or you stuff. In other words, it pays to play lame.

[Zeromus_X]

This is why Mu is so hard....

Yeah. Spacing and strategies are different not only against every character, but even different situations and persons. Mu really forces you to treat each matchup differently, and really think about things like spacing, positioning, and analyzing your opponent. Not that you shouldn't try to do this with every character obviously, but I really feel Mu requires it, add that to learning how to use her tools and she's not really "pick up and play".

As for some basic spacing stuff, check out the wiki, but here's a really quick, really general list of keeping people away:

2B - close ground poke, use this for "pretty cool guys" who just run up and 2A or whatever

5A/6A/2C - anti airs, 5A is shortest/fastest, 6A is a little farther but a little slower, and 2C is much farther but much slower

5C -midrange ground poke, but make sure you're not too close or you can get stuffed.

jC - great midrange air poke, hitting with the tip if this can be very annoying for the opponent

SoD/236A - these can be used after you set up one or two steins. SoD for people that are close or try to run in, and 236A for people that are faraway and to kill projectiles. They can still come in from directly above you or try to cross you up, so mix it up by jump cancelling the steins or with 236D/214D

236D - Use with steins far apart from eachother so the laser "bounces" longer

214D - Use with steins closer to eachother for bigger explosion area

But yeah, keep learning Mu! there needs to be more than ten of us If you can learn the spacing, matchups, setups, and combo parts now, it'll only be easier in CS2 since she looks a LOT more solid in that game. It's true her midscreen combo and setup opportunity took a hit, but her stuff in the corner looks sick, her pressure looks a lot safer, and of course we all know her zoning got better.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Zeromus_X

[Innolis]

Tks for all the data guys, that wiki looks mighty interesting!

[choysauce]

is it just me or is cs2 mu sounding like cs1 rachel, except she's actually good. corner lockdown/pressure w/ decent zoning

as for her spacing, i think its important to be unpredictable with when you place steins, so that opponents will be hesitant to just rush in, but you gotta make sure you punish them for carelessly rushing in.

cuz it seems like most ppl get in on her when ppl just place steins whenever they feel like it. (but with her recovery being buffed this will be less of a problem in cs2)

[FlyingVe]

Don't confuse unpredictable with random. The steins in and of themselves are not that good. Always be planing for 236D or 214D as those control space much better than just steins.

So, I think a planned approach is best. Mu's lasers do a phenomenal job of controlling large portions of the screen. Exploit that. Unpredictability only really works when your opponent doesn't understand the steins, which will be less of an issue as they play the matchup more. Steins are to slow to really test someones reactions.

Edited February 2, 2011 by FlyingVe

[C0R]

Personally, I have a different take on µ12, based on the fundamental way stein specials work. They're a web that allows you to control the space they occupy, inherently different from lambda's projectiles and more akin to Rachel's lobelia's/george. While they are definite zoning tools, they can also be used to enhance and protect her pressure.

So yes, some matchups like Ragna, wall beams is the plan, but for more dyniamic midscreen matchups like Litchi, you really have to use all your tools in every way they can be used.

[choysauce]

Don't confuse unpredictable with random. The steins in and of themselves are not that good. Always be planing for 236D or 214D as those control space much better than just steins.

So, I think a planned approach is best. Mu's lasers do a phenomenal job of controlling large portions of the screen. Exploit that. Unpredictability only really works when your opponent doesn't understand the steins, which will be less of an issue as they play the matchup more. Steins are to slow to really test someones reactions.

yeah i don't mean it by being random at all, i'm just sayin that cuz i see in alot of videos, mu players just placing steins when the opponent is just not in their face, but at an unsafe distance. and gettin rushed down cuz they put out a stein while someone happened to be airdashing toward them

cuz she has tools to keep ppl at bay with C's and anti airs. so it would make opponents more cautious about approaching

just gotta be smart about it.

but i could be wrong, i'm not that strong of a player yet =\

[FlyingVe]

This question and response was posted in another thread, and I think it would be a really good thing to discuss:

I have a question... When playing a character that is somewhat fast, with low priority (rachel, mu), how do you play footsies? Rachel is a bit easier due to lobelias but with mu's c normals each having horrible startup and recovery, and meh a/b normals, I find it stressful to get my opponent to respect my range. Even if I psychic their movements I get beat out a lot, and mu gets bruised something serious. Should I just stand there and let my opponent in or risk a backdash/IABD in a general situation?

You gotta split your matches up into the ones where you win or lose in neutral. When you lose in neutral, these are the matches where you should play a bit defensively. If its your normals that lose, you can fall back on zoning. If its zoning they beat you in (doubt it), then you have to play REALLY safe and try to get your one hit in so you can start your turn and try to win as fast as possible.

This is something that I do not have entirely figured out myself becaus Mu's Zoning and Neutral game are so unusual. I put forth this list, feel free to disagree:

Characters where we win the neutral game:

Tager, Carl, Arakune, Rachel, Valkenhayne,

Characters where we lose the neutral:

Hazama, Hakumen, Taokaka, Litchi, Bang, Jin, Makoto

Characters we go even with in neutral:

Noel, Tsubaki, Ragna, Lambda

I could be way off base or forgetting something, so I want to know what everybody thinks. This is really important for Mu's game, i feel.

[Zeromus_X]

For Hazama, there's definitely no competing against his dumb normals up close (though 5C-jC is still good poke midrange), but if/once you get set up, you can actually zone him for awhile. Not as hard to easily run away from him though, unless he already commited himself to flying somewhere with the chain. I feel it's the same for Litchi, but much easier since you can outrun her fat thighs quite well. Same thing for Bang unless he really wants to burn all his nails at once. I think the ability to outmaneuver characters, how much you can safely set up, and the threat you have before/after setup are things to consider too, though my understanding of "neutral" game is still a bit tenuous.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Zeromus_X

[Overheat]

I actually think Mu-Lambda is at Lambda's advantage at neutral. It's a completely different match-up once Mu has steins set-up, or if Mu gets no time to set-up steins at all =/

It's a pretty even-ish match-up anyways, so it doesn't matter a huge deal -_- But that's just my take on it.

[Zeromus_X]

I perfectly agree, but I think Mu's pokes and how Lambda has to commit to an angle with her sword are what prevent it being too hard to set up in that match. While we're at it, here's my list of (imo) matchups in terms of how hard it is to set up in neutral:

Matches where you should only set 1 stein at a time very carefully, and judge situation carefully if you want to set more (emphasize movement and "running away" more than anything):

Taokaka, Bang, Litchi, Lambda, Hakumen, Hazama

Matches where you should be careful, but you can generally set 1-2 steins at a time with proper spacing/judgement:

Ragna, Jin, Noel, Carl, Mu, Makoto, Valkenhayn

Matches where you can almost do whatever:

Tager, Rachel, Arakune

I'm not sure what's happening on the screen:

Mu

[FlyingVe]

Neutral is something different from zoning. LK suggests that if you lose at neutral you can fall back to a zoning stance. Also, these are not matchups... so how easy the matchup is may or may not be related (though there's a good chance it is).

How difficult to zone someone is also a related, though different issue. Hazama is that nightmare case the LK talked about where a character beats you at neutral AND out zones you, while Bang and Tao beat you at Neutral and are almost un-zone-able.

Edit: In an attempt to clarify, I hope, Neutral is how easy it is for one character to gain an advantage. For a character like lambda, this means GTFO, so how hard is it for her to set up her advantages positioning. For Ragna, it's how to GTFI, if you follow.

Edited February 3, 2011 by FlyingVe

[TD]

puttin me on blast ._.

with how annoyingly slow mu's normals are, l feel like one should be prepared to block a LOT, even with her clashy dp. steins dont really 'protect' mu at all, so essentially setting them outside of fullscreen in quite a few matchups will que an opponent to do what they do.

so from my experience, matchup goes like this -

stein (or 2)

- opponent does nothing; activate/reserve steins

op gets past steins

-aa

-block (better be good)

-dp

your turn soon follows. rinse and repeat.

[StarryShade]

This is reminding me of Tager General with all the salt, I wish Mu didn't have such easily punished when whiffed moves...5C and 6C I'm staring at you <_<

[TD]

neo, as we discuss things, do you think you can add some of this into the wiki strategy so it dosent get lost in the future?

another section we need to touch on soon, is primer breaking. mu is great at this, but (l think) we all tend to forget about this.

[FlyingVe]

This is reminding me of Tager General with all the salt, I wish Mu didn't have such easily punished when whiffed moves...5C and 6C I'm staring at you <_<

Well with great power come great responsibility I guess. But mostly, Mu is a character of extremes, as such, you can get caught with you pants down pretty easy. Also, some match-ups are very salty.

Also, I post in both, and I have a very cynical edge, plus Tager and I have a very love hate relationship.

[StarryShade]

tbh I just lose to everyone with Mu...unless it's Lambda, she used to be my counter pick for Lambda till I started picking up Hazama again...man did that make Lambda 5 billion times easier to beat...she can't zone Hazama and you can cancel out her sword wave easily...though you can cancel out Lambda's shit with Mu you can still be zoned...<_<

[FlyingVe]

Mu vs Lambda is a wierd matchup in my opinion, both characters screw with each other usual gameplan. For example, usually Lambda pretty much wants you as far away as possible, but if she does that against Mu, you can set up stiens and thus hurt her.

As a more... angry... Mu player, my usual approach is to do everything in my power to get a couple of steins out, then fire off a command laser. This pretty much prevents her from using swords and lets you get in. Also, you can oki the hell out of lambda because her answers suck. Lastly abuse you 2B frame trap to keep up pressure. She cant out poke you, and her DP is slow enough that you can 2A or 2B see the DP, and then block>punish.

Another thing in this matchup is know 6C. 6C is an anti-zoning weapon, but it's really slow so you gotta be careful with it. 6C on reaction beats 236D and 214D, you can also use it to yomi a D-sword or backdash after a blocked 236B

[Zeromus_X]

Since you mentioned GP breaking setups tempest, here's some I did on accident was messing with today. Other than the obvious, SoD at end of blockstring or 5D,6D blahblah, SoD fully charged.

x[D], SoD (charge)

If you have time to set out a charged stein, cancel into SoD. You can just let it go if they run/airdash towards you, and the laser cover you if it whiffs or add on some extra damage if it hits. If they see it, stop, and block, you'll eat off 2 primers, and you can run in for a blockstring after x[D] and can possibly use 214D and then SoD for a total of 3-4 primers (this works best with 6[D] as long as it doesn't go offscreen). If they're further away or aren't trying to actively get in on you, the charge stein will keep you safe and you can mix up how long you hold the SoD if they decide they want to get in.

...5D 4D 214D SoD

In zoning or after 6C oki. If they block the 214D, you can SoD for at least 2 total primers depending on how long you charge it.

...236D (laser passes through final stein), xD, xD, 214D...

After the final laser passes through from 236D, if the opponent blocks it, summon 1-2 more steins (which one you use depends on what will overlap the opponent) and 214D. You can SoD right afterwards. Dash up 5D 214D after 236D can work every now and then too, but this can be mashed out of. You could mix that up with 5D JC... or 5D SoD, same with the xDs.

[Klazzix]

Trying to learn Mu, so quick question:

Is it always possible to connect 632146C after a 2B? It seems I can't get it to work on some of the longer combos I'm trying to do where I could still get the 2B to hit.

[FlyingVe]

Technically, it isn't always possible, but 99% time it is.

You need to buffer the 2B input into the super. So it would look like this 632B146C.

On males minus Hazama, Bang, (and valk too I believe) you can do 2B>5B>632146C which does a smidge more damage and is much easier.