[CSE] Hakumen Q & A: New players check here first

[zreb]

Counters are pretty high risk meh reward right now in terms of damage. His damage is also low ish in CS2 even though it soars in the corner.

He also lacks reliable, generally safe-ish AAs. 2C has a good hitbox, but in many situations you have to really know they're going to do approach in a way that it will catch before committing to it due to its lackluster speed. If you haven't tried 5A for AAing yet, it'd be good to start because it's one of his better ones. Beyond those, 5D and 6D (and theoretically j.D, but it's bad so) will stop jump ins, but you have to be fairly certain that they're going to hit a button and not bait it. Hotaru is your safest bet for AA, though it's obviously expensive if they block it.

If you haven't been having much luck with parries, 5D is significantly easier to use than the others. It's active 16 frames instead of the others' 7-9. Be cautious since it doesn't doesn't activate until frame 5 and deosn't catch lows though (and being predictable is always a bad idea.)

You have to be careful when using 4C. If you're using it at a range that you're being hit out of, then more than likely you are not using it at its maximum range. Anything closer than that gets disproportionately more dangerous, generally speaking.

Most characters cannot get as high damage as Hakumen in the corner for how cheap it is. Haku also gets pretty good damage in the corner off of starters that simply aren't his best. Outside of the corner, yes, you generally want to be sparing on meter spending. You're thinking more about corner push there than damage.

He's low tier this time for a reason! If you genuinely like him, I'd encourage you to stick with him. It's looking like he's going to get significant buffs in the next version.

Also, if you're ever lost about what to do or about a matchup in particular, the video thread is your friend.

Edited August 27, 2011 by zreb

[NeoArtisan]

ya thats why i chose him and i dont plan on dropping hakumen anytime soon, im just annoyed by all these unnecessary limitations they've put on him.

[M.C.Dillinger]

I'd love to stick with Hakumen but I can't get his falling j.2C combo to work. Normally I do the attack too early. I know it's been said before to look at his knees and weight until they bend to use j.2C but when I do I land before it comes out. If I can get this to work I have to go back to Raggna (although I would like to learn Hazama regardless).

[SansProtocol]

I'd love to stick with Hakumen but I can't get his falling j.2C combo to work. Normally I do the attack too early. I know it's been said before to look at his knees and weight until they bend to use j.2C but when I do I land before it comes out. If I can get this to work I have to go back to Raggna (although I would like to learn Hazama regardless).

Just do blind j.2Cs without hitting an opponent and see how late you can do it before they stop coming out. You'll want to try them hit him them as low as possible to have enough time to land and 2C. j.2A's untech time was increased in CS2 so you have a while to actually hit with them. It's really just getting it into muscle memory for the most part, I'm afraid.

[IndigoNovember]

I'd love to stick with Hakumen but I can't get his falling j.2C combo to work. Normally I do the attack too early. I know it's been said before to look at his knees and weight until they bend to use j.2C but when I do I land before it comes out. If I can get this to work I have to go back to Raggna (although I would like to learn Hazama regardless).

Another way to think about it, is to do the falling j.2c when your opponent has flipped over and is falling. As soon as you see s/he has completely flipped, do the j.2c, you can get away with doing it a little earlier as well.

[SansProtocol]

Another way to think about it, is to do the falling j.2c when your opponent has flipped over and is falling. As soon as you see s/he has completely flipped, do the j.2c, you can get away with doing it a little earlier as well.

Thanks for the assist as I just have it down to a science in muscle memory and I didn't use the visual cues you mentioned to learn how to time it, nor do I use them now.

[M.C.Dillinger]

I'm succeeding at a little more often. I guess is just practice after that thanks guys.

This got me thinking though, many of Hakumen's combos are reliant on a small number of links and cancels. Most of the practical ones are about finding ways to set them up. It might help the community if we write a execution guide for Hakumen.

On an unrelated note with a name like M.C.Dillinger you think I would play Hazama.

[IndigoNovember]

Thanks for the assist as I just have it down to a science in muscle memory and I didn't use the visual cues you mentioned to learn how to time it, nor do I use them now.

Don't worry about it, just quoting what a netplayer told me when I was trying to get it down. I used to use the "watch the knees" cue as well, but couldn't really tell, so I found the netplayer's advice quite helpful.

This got me thinking though, many of Hakumen's combos are reliant on a small number of links and cancels. Most of the practical ones are about finding ways to set them up. It might help the community if we write a execution guide for Hakumen.

Hmm, it certainly might be helpful seeing as how a lot of his moves can/need to be delayed in his combos. Most of the odd points could probably just be addressed in the combo guide with notes here and there though. What do others think about this?

[Jmyster]

There is some merit to the idea--however, there is an execution center up already in the second post. Perhaps all that needs to be done is to expand it, maybe give some more detail on specific combos.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Jmyster

[NeoArtisan]

ok got a couple more questions:

1- Do hakumen's counters auto correct? as in if someone crosses you up will hakumen turn around and hit them or will he throw the attack in the original direction?

2- If lambda randomly throws out that projectile super is it possible to hit it with one of hakumen's C attacks or is it too fast for that? that is if you press the attack button AFTER you see the super freeze ofcourse, im assuming that its possible to counter it with yukikaze but would be nice to have a meterless option.

3- is it just me or does hakumen have the most useless astral heat in the game? even putting aside the required 8 stars, its a charge motion counter and can only be used when their health is 35% or lower, when their health is that low wouldnt a yukikaze + follow up be enough to kill anyone (except maybe tager). And if im not mistaken yukikaze even has more active frames, i wouldnt rly expect to use an AH much with hakumen anyway but it just seems kinda silly to give an AH like that to hakumen.

[mAc Chaos]

1) It depends when it's triggered, but usually yes. It doesn't mean he's going to be able to reach them though.

2) You can cut it.

3) They're not meant to be useful to begin with. It's more of a style thing.

[zreb]

You probably can't realistically cut Lambda's projectile super by simply reacting to seeing it. It's 16+10 frames startup, and you don't have any C's that move fast enough to compensate for human reaction time (which is somewhere around 16 frames, actually.) If 3c actually hit it then it's a big "maybe," but I'm skeptical that the hitboxes would actually work out. I also feel you'd really have to be expecting it to react that quickly. Non-super Ds (2d, 6d, or j.D if you were in the air; 5d is not frame 1) are realistic if you're at neutral, but you have to chain them together to avoid the entire super.

What mac said @ astrals. Only ones like Valk's that are DPs are legitimately useful, but obviously it's not a help at all to Hakumen that he cannot combo into his. Regardless, they are not that useful in general and most people playing seriously will not go out of their way to pull them unless they just happen to get a combo starter when they have enough meter etc.

[IndigoNovember]

1- Do hakumen's counters auto correct? as in if someone crosses you up will hakumen turn around and hit them or will he throw the attack in the original direction?

Pretty much what Mac said, it sure is funny watching someone try and cross you up only to be grabbed anyways (I'm looking at you Jin).

2- If lambda randomly throws out that projectile super is it possible to hit it with one of hakumen's C attacks or is it too fast for that? that is if you press the attack button AFTER you see the super freeze ofcourse, im assuming that its possible to counter it with yukikaze but would be nice to have a meterless option.

If you are throwing out the attack after the super flash, you have to be pretty far back, as in on the other side of the screen, and use 2c or 4c in order to cut it. Another option is to use 5d -> 2d/6d -> 2d/6d . You can use it from any distance after the super flash. It's another good way to dissuade any type of mixup while Legacy Edge is active. If you are close enough, 6d -> 6d may catch twice, just like this video (note: you can't do this anymore).

3- is it just me or does hakumen have the most useless astral heat in the game? even putting aside the required 8 stars, its a charge motion counter and can only be used when their health is 35% or lower, when their health is that low wouldnt a yukikaze + follow up be enough to kill anyone (except maybe tager). And if im not mistaken yukikaze even has more active frames, i wouldnt rly expect to use an AH much with hakumen anyway but it just seems kinda silly to give an AH like that to hakumen.

Oh hello Tager, what's up? Hey, what are you doing? Why are you walking towards me with that creepy grin and magnets on full power? OH NO YOU DON'T! *Akumetsu 720c. This happens all the time with my friend's Tager.

But yeah, it's generally pretty useless.

You probably can't realistically cut Lambda's projectile super by simply reacting to seeing it. It's 16+10 frames startup, and you don't have any C's that move fast enough to compensate for human reaction time (which is somewhere around 16 frames, actually.) If 3c actually hit it then it's a big "maybe," but I'm skeptical that the hitboxes would actually work out. I also feel you'd really have to be expecting it to react that quickly. Non-super Ds (2d, 6d, or j.D if you were in the air; 5d is not frame 1) are realistic if you're at neutral, but you have to chain them together to avoid the entire super.

3c doesn't work, even though it seems to come out in time, the hitbox doesn't create an orb.

What mac said @ astrals. Only ones like Valk's that are DPs are legitimately useful, but obviously it's not a help at all to Hakumen that he cannot combo into his. Regardless, they are not that useful in general and most people playing seriously will not go out of their way to pull them unless they just happen to get a combo starter when they have enough meter etc.

It's probably only useful for those situations where someone throws out a Distortion Drive and you just happen to be in the area to Astral Finish him.

[NeoArtisan]

guess il just stick to yukikaze then.

And i know that astrals arent very useful in general, i just think that its a bit stupid to give a character an astral thats basically a watered down version of one of their DDs and costs twice as much meter. Yukikaze is just better in every aspect, more active frames, works on projectiles, only costs 4 stars, easier motion. Only thing thats better on the astral is the damage which is kind of negated by the AH conditions.

Edited September 2, 2011 by NeoArtisan

[Schneider-X]

Hakumen's astral is the only one of his counters that will work against throws and unblockable attacks.

[IndigoNovember]

Hakumen's astral is the only one of his counters that will work against throws and unblockable attacks.

Gotta catch those Tager throws and those full charge Jin DP d's. Why do they happen so much in casuals?

[SansProtocol]

Also, Yukikaze working on projectiles isn't as good as people think. You'll only catch someone with the gimmick a few times but you'll generally want to use Yukikaze on physical moves to get the hitstop. At least he has plenty of other options to use his meter on.

[NeoArtisan]

Also, Yukikaze working on projectiles isn't as good as people think. You'll only catch someone with the gimmick a few times but you'll generally want to use Yukikaze on physical moves to get the hitstop. At least he has plenty of other options to use his meter on.

thats true but i mean the option is still there, and its still practical against projectile DDs. I didnt know that the AH counter works on throws and unblockables though.

[zreb]

It's only practical if you're that desperate for approach, and even then it's still not very good, since a Lambda (for instance) could easily just super jump and air dash away from you while you're whiffing the cut. Then you're just 4 stars out, and their meter isn't worth as much to them as your meter is to you.

[IndigoNovember]

thats true but i mean the option is still there, and its still practical against projectile DDs.

Projectile Distortion Drives Yukikaze will beat without you being lucky: none. Everything else has a way to beat Yukikaze, either by spacing or by Rapid Cancel or by some other method. Here's a list of Projectile Distortion Drives that Yukikaze will beat out if your opponent can't Rapid Cancel: Jin's Hiyoku Getsumei (Moonsong), Hazama's Mizuchi Rekkazan (Eternal Coils of the Dragon Serpent), Lamda-11's Calamity Sword, and Noel's Fenrir (the shots, not the beginning poke).

For normal projectiles, you pretty much have to catch the projectile as your opponent is falling from at least 1 character's height high after having done all of his/her jumps. That way, s/he's forced to land and super jump again in order to get out of Yukikaze, but Yukikaze is usually fast enough so that your opponent doesn't have time to do all of that. Now how you can do that in a match, well... Get lucky ( ﾟ▽ﾟ) ?

[NeoArtisan]

It's only practical if you're that desperate for approach, and even then it's still not very good, since a Lambda (for instance) could easily just super jump and air dash away from you while you're whiffing the cut. Then you're just 4 stars out, and their meter isn't worth as much to them as your meter is to you.

wouldnt lambda not recover fast enough to SJ away after her DDs (without rapid cancels)? And i dont know about you guys but i can get a bit desperate when playing against a good lambda, they can zone you out and nullifying projectiles with sword attacks isnt always easy unless they never change their pattern/timing, if you mess up you can get countered and combo'd. So spending 4 stars to get in and do some damage doesnt seem like a waste to me.

Ofcourse its only possible if they cant rapid cancel but that doesnt make it impractical imo because meter building in this game isnt as easy as other games, and we're talking about having a full heat gauge (1 for the DD and 1 for the RC). I do agree that its not practical against normal projectiles but when it comes to DD projectiles without RCs i think that yukikaze would work fine against a good majority of them, and if thats the case then i dont think that its a bad idea to spend 4 stars to do 3.8K guaranteed damage (with follow up options if you have more meter).

[Zeron_X25]

You can Yukikaze everything Hazama has that looks like a projectile and you will get a stick because they're considered physical attacks as well. That means you can astral his chain approach as well. Just a quick note to keep in mind.

[zreb]

wouldnt lambda not recover fast enough to SJ away after her DDs (without rapid cancels)? And i dont know about you guys but i can get a bit desperate when playing against a good lambda, they can zone you out and nullifying projectiles with sword attacks isnt always easy unless they never change their pattern/timing, if you mess up you can get countered and combo'd. So spending 4 stars to get in and do some damage doesnt seem like a waste to me.

For whatever reason, my automatic response was Lambda's Legacy Edge, which is the one that shoots lots of swords. Yukikaze does not work on that and Lambda recovers in more than enough time to leap away. Calamity Edge, however, would work but it's not really a "projectile" in nature, it just has its property. Since it's in range, a normal D would leave you in a better position to deal real damage momentum and meter wise.

For Lambda in specific, it could theoretically work on the 2nd hit of her normals (5dd, 6dd etc) or air swords, but achieving that kind of read on a good player is basically what Indigo said: rucky.

Ofcourse its only possible if they cant rapid cancel but that doesnt make it impractical imo because meter building in this game isnt as easy as other games, and we're talking about having a full heat gauge (1 for the DD and 1 for the RC). I do agree that its not practical against normal projectiles but when it comes to DD projectiles without RCs i think that yukikaze would work fine against a good majority of them, and if thats the case then i dont think that its a bad idea to spend 4 stars to do 3.8K guaranteed damage (with follow up options if you have more meter).

This depends on what exactly we're talking about with DD projectiles, and it really boils down to what the frame data looks like. It lists Yukikaze (attack)'s startup as 56 frames, with Lambda's Legacy Edge as 57 total frames recovery. In training mode, however, Lambda has time to move away. I presume it has to do with Haku being frozen during superflash when he catches, but because it's a projectile, Lambda is not. However, someone else may have to present a more absolute explanation as I don't understand it fully... (I actually believe this topic has come up before, but I'm awful and have forgotten the details.)

It's fine if you can get that damage, but I feel you're overestimating what all it reliably works on and also underestimating just how situational it really is (e.g., it works on Noel's reversal, but throwing out Noel's reversal at neutral is a hilariously bad idea.)

Edited September 5, 2011 by zreb

[Spark]

For projectiles under "Recovery" it lists a "total" which is different than the recovery of a normal move. When it says total it means the character start up + character recovery. So Hakumen can't punish Lambda's 236236D with 236236D because it has 57F(total) - 26F(start up) = 31F(recovery) and Hakumen's counter starts up in 56 frames.

[NeoArtisan]

hmm weird, i figured the 57F recovery + start up frames on a SJ would give you enough time to land yukikaze. Maybe it will be possible in CSE with the faster start up on yukikaze.

EDIT: ahh ok, although i dont understand why they put recovery + start up instead of just recovery.

Edited September 5, 2011 by NeoArtisan