[CS1] Tsubaki Yayoi - General Discussion 2.0

[BatousaiJ]

Or they can wait until we don't cancel it, and punish us lolol :D Either that or we lose all "pressure" :D

Maybe but the simple idea that we even have this "pressure" to lose in the first place is a pretty big improvement! Aha.

[STenSatsu]

It's nice because suddenly her regular specials become like HS fuujin in that you can make them semi-safe through mind-games depending on if we can cancel it very late or not.

[Ginseng]

lol either that or we're being delusional :D But we will see! Rep Tsubaki in norcal for me if I fail please.

When the game finally comes out in Japan, I will do a compiled list of changes. Either that or someone else will lol :D Either way, once someone does it, I'll probably sticky it and include it in a new version of the guide or something.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Ginseng

[TD]

exactly/less than a week now.

[pktazn]

Ooo those changes sound like they could be fun. I wonder what shenanigans we'll be able to come up with...

[Airk]

Or they can wait until we don't cancel it, and punish us lolol :D Either that or we lose all "pressure" :D

Not following you. If they wait until we "don't cancel" they would also miss their punish window? Assuming it's the same sort of cancel window you'd get on block, you're only looking at a very small handful of frames for them to attempt a punish in, and if they guess wrong, they're catching a hit in their teeth. I think the only situation in which this would be problematic is when you've got someone like Ragna with a reversal that has a lot of invulnerability frames.

[Ginseng]

Not following you. If they wait until we "don't cancel" they would also miss their punish window? Assuming it's the same sort of cancel window you'd get on block, you're only looking at a very small handful of frames for them to attempt a punish in, and if they guess wrong, they're catching a hit in their teeth. I think the only situation in which this would be problematic is when you've got someone like Ragna with a reversal that has a lot of invulnerability frames.

Most of her specials are really unsafe on block at the moment. If they remain like that, in the case where you don't cancel it, you probably have to stick to blocking as soon as possible anyways.

[huey253]

Now if they'd just make it air unblockable... :P

Totally in favor of this. This adds some nice mixup, depending on when you're allowed to cancel out of things, but being able to cancel out of any blocked special into 22D or 623D or even 236D is definitely going to keep people guessing about whether they should try to punish blocked specials.

Absolutely no way to tell, because it depends on how close you are to the ground. Though since there was some talk about "gravity" being stronger in CS2 (As in, people return to the ground faster after some stuff) it's not impossible?

Still really sad. Why do Tsubaki's supers have to suck so badly? Why can we blow an entire bar of charges for nothing when Bang gets insane invulnerabiltiy on his stupid explody super that only costs him heat and does more damage? @_@ We're stuck with the worst "power up" super in the game too... =/

ashura isn't fully invincible on startup. i was making jokes at the sadlife F tier character that is now apparently worse then rachel.

[Airk]

ashura isn't fully invincible on startup. i was making jokes at the sadlife F tier character that is now apparently worse then rachel.

Right, sorry. I was mixing it up with Daifunka, which apparently does have "Invincible from 1F through 24F after super freeze" in the frame data. x.x

And yeah, Ginseng, we have to block, but you know, blocking is better than getting comboed. The point is that now that there is the threat of a D-move cancel, we can use moves that are unsafe on block because the fact that we MIGHT cancel it means that they have to hesitate before punishing and give up the advantage they would have had otherwise. I think.

[pktazn]

The flip side to that though is that if we don't cancel fast enough, especially if they're unsafe on block, they can still punish us especially if their move beats out the move we're canceling to anyway lol.

So really it would just be safer to block but hey, as Tsubaki mains we take the chance right when we choose her from the character select screen :]

[Airk]

The flip side to that though is that if we don't cancel fast enough, especially if they're unsafe on block, they can still punish us especially if their move beats out the move we're canceling to anyway lol.

Well, very little should lose to 623D. But yes. That said, it all really depends on the window for the cancel.

[Ginseng]

Well blowing a charge on block is pretty unrewarding imo. The risk/reward for cancelling into D moves isn't really that worth it if you ask me, even if it's an invincibility move like 623D.

[Airk]

Well blowing a charge on block is pretty unrewarding imo. The risk/reward for cancelling into D moves isn't really that worth it if you ask me, even if it's an invincibility move like 623D.

Well, obviously it depends on the move, but odds are you can at least count on it being a CH if it hits. If they're mashing to try to punish, 623D should give you a couple K of damage. If they're NOT mashing to try to punish you, you can turn it into 22D shenanigans or just block and be at neutral.

It REALLY depends on the size of the cancel window and when it starts, because we COULD in theory be at a surprising amount of advantage - if we want to just play with random numbers here and say that the 236C gets the same sort of cancel properties as 236D on block (i.e. you can cancel into a new move after 2 frames of recovery) then assuming you get 18 frames of blockstun (level 4 attack), you hit, you cancel into 22D at 2 frames of recovery, your opponent is still in blockstun for somewhere between 6 and 16 frames. (More frames the further you were away when you started - the fewer remaining active frames, the longer they are in stun). 22D has a 14 frame startup and even a fast jab takes 5 frames to get active. This means that if you had less than half your active frames remaining, they can't jab you before 22D comes out and hits them. And if they're blocking, well, 22D is +3 on block even if you release it right away. Yeah, they can still clobber you with the likes of Inferno Divider or something with fast invincibility, and you have to choose your 236 attack so you hit towards the end of the active frames, but otherwise, it ALMOST looks like pressure. :P Assuming you have charge. Though it sounds like they might've made charging easier? Who knows, the whole thing is muddled.

That's all Super Theory Fighter, of course, since it all hinges on numbers we don't have, but it serves as an example of what could be possible if they don't completely screw with the numbers. Will it magically fix issues with holes in blockstrings? No, but will allow more pressure from her 'normal' special moves.

[TheGreatReptar]

Well, obviously it depends on the move, but odds are you can at least count on it being a CH if it hits. If they're mashing to try to punish, 623D should give you a couple K of damage. If they're NOT mashing to try to punish you, you can turn it into 22D shenanigans or just block and be at neutral.

It REALLY depends on the size of the cancel window and when it starts, because we COULD in theory be at a surprising amount of advantage - if we want to just play with random numbers here and say that the 236C gets the same sort of cancel properties as 236D on block (i.e. you can cancel into a new move after 2 frames of recovery) then assuming you get 18 frames of blockstun (level 4 attack), you hit, you cancel into 22D at 2 frames of recovery, your opponent is still in blockstun for somewhere between 6 and 16 frames. (More frames the further you were away when you started - the fewer remaining active frames, the longer they are in stun). 22D has a 14 frame startup and even a fast jab takes 5 frames to get active. This means that if you had less than half your active frames remaining, they can't jab you before 22D comes out and hits them. And if they're blocking, well, 22D is +3 on block even if you release it right away. Yeah, they can still clobber you with the likes of Inferno Divider or something with fast invincibility, and you have to choose your 236 attack so you hit towards the end of the active frames, but otherwise, it ALMOST looks like pressure. :P Assuming you have charge. Though it sounds like they might've made charging easier? Who knows, the whole thing is muddled.

That's all Super Theory Fighter, of course, since it all hinges on numbers we don't have, but it serves as an example of what could be possible if they don't completely screw with the numbers. Will it magically fix issues with holes in blockstrings? No, but will allow more pressure from her 'normal' special moves.

tldr; Theory Fighting frametraps with D specials.

[TD]

lt's still extremely gimmicky and not worth the effort unless those numbers are broken. l dont see much "practical" use for this unless you intensely condition your opponent which l just dont see happening ever. lf she had (more) better frame traps then alot of things would be different...

[Airk]

lt's still extremely gimmicky and not worth the effort unless those numbers are broken. l dont see much "practical" use for this unless you intensely condition your opponent which l just dont see happening ever. lf she had (more) better frame traps then alot of things would be different...

Again, given the numbers above, it's NOT a gimmick. Using the current numbers, you get -real- frame advantage from cancelling into a 22D. Requires no conditioning, makes 236X safe. Period. Non-gimmick.

Can you do anything with it? Who knows. Is it "real"? Not yet, but it easily could be.

[BatousaiJ]

It's a gimmick because you can only do it in certain situations(lol have charge) and it's real benfits come not by making a move that's unsafe, safe but rather getting some kind of offense off of it which requires you to trick your opponent.

I.E. Gimmick.

A good one though. I certainly like it.

[STenSatsu]

Making an unsafe move safe is a great benefit, especially off 236x which gives her a good way in in exchange for 1 charge. Given that charge is apparently much easier to get in CS2 it shouldn't be a massive tradeoff. Other moves or delaying the 22d to catch a punish or go for a reset are gimmicks but just doing move>22d for +3 isn't imo.

[Ginseng]

I thought they reverted all charging back to CS1 status except you are in CH state now?

[pktazn]

IIRC only 5D's charging speed is faster.

j.D and 2D were faster but they changed it back to CS1 in later loketests.

EDIT: I just checked and it said the recovery was slower for j.D and 2D not charging, though they did specifically state that j.D charging was back to CS1 in the last loketest.

So I think 5D and 2D still charge faster, though it's possible they changed it in the final product.

Loketest 5:

- j.D's charging speed is the same as it was in CS1.

Loketest 4:

I don't think there was any information on her from here lol.

Loketest 3:

+ 2D/5D/j.D all charge faster, though. 2 stocks off 22C finisher midscreen seems reasonable.

+ 5D seems to recover faster, too

- 2D feels a lot slower to recover, was worried doing CC's.

Edited December 8, 2010 by pktazn

[pktazn]

Double post yeaaa! Major thanks to HiagoX for translating Tsubaki info!

+ 5D's charge speed is faster than before. It seems like he got 1.5 charge meter really fast.

+ 2D's initial charge speed is kinda slow, after that it gets faster.

+ Air throw can be followed up midscreen without gauge.

+ A/B/C "Sword" staggers on ground hit.

- The opponent techs faster when hit by 3C, so you have no other choice but use 3CC.

- Her ground throw cannot be cancelled; it blows the opponent off like you were hit by "Wind".

- While charging, you're in CH status.

- "C Light" does not break Primers.

o 6CC > "D Wind" is possible on corner.

o On midscreen, "D Wind" blows the opponent just like A/B/C, but can't be followed-up.

o "A Spear" has the same startup time from CS1 but since there isn't any invencibility anymore, people were hit out of it a lot. Can't be followed up even on CH.

o 6B looks faster, can't follow-up with 5C anymore.

o "Airthrow > 2CC > j.C > dj.CC > "A Light" > "C Wing"" deals around 2400 damage.

o "A/B/C Sword" on CH is just like CS1.

[Airk]

Can we get a convenient translation guide for the Japanese move nicknames to motions? It's pretty useless to read something like that and not know what moves they're talking about.

All I've been able to figure out is that:

Light=j236

Wings=j214

Spear=623

Not sure what Sword, Wind, or Light are.

[Airk]

It's a gimmick because you can only do it in certain situations(lol have charge) and it's real benfits come not by making a move that's unsafe, safe but rather getting some kind of offense off of it which requires you to trick your opponent.

Again.... it doesn't require you to TRICK them. If they do anything other than an invincible reversal, you have the advantage, either by hitting them or by being at +3 frames on block of 22D.

But whatever. Hopefully now that the game is out, we can start getting real info on what works when and what the windows are for this stuff.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Ginseng

[Ginseng]

Okay closing this thread, it's time for a new General Discussion thread, with the release of CS2. Guide and stuff won't be worked with until much later.