[CS1] Tsubaki Yayoi - General Discussion 2.0

[Rhiya]

Found some more Tsubaki changes that weren't in the first post:

- Tsubasa follow-up has a sharp angle, difficult to hit with.

- D-wings knocks opponent directly down for a slide down, but D-Hikari won't hit some characters.

- 3CC can float opponents high, but cannot be followed up if Tsubaki has no gauge.

Third.

The third is so lolwut

[Kiba]

That was my same reaction too. They just seem....odd.

The second means no followup at all for some characters?

[soujiro seta]

ROTFLMAO. I like how they're nerfing tsubaki. I also like how hitbox of her normals are still the same, and they want her to use a charge to combo off stuff like 3CC. Shoutouts to:

- Tsubasa follow-up has a sharp angle, difficult to hit with.

- D-wings knocks opponent directly down for a slide down, but D-Hikari won't hit some characters.

Yeah lets make it harder for her to combo as well.

It doesn't matter right guys, i mean arc thinks buffing 5B alone will make up for everything else.

Ofcourse this is just a loctest, but nerfing tsubaki? making it harder to combo? Hahaha, i simply can't help but lol

Edited November 17, 2010 by soujiro seta

[HiagoX]

KayEff translated one of the lines I didn't, so here:

She received many buffs in small stuff, and she received many nerfs in some little things as well. (?)

But indeed she is stronger than before.

They made more changes and nerfs (this part needs verification), it's harder to fill up the gauge, and at one point I laughed at how the level was like at CS1. (BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW)

(Something about the usage method of some of her little stuff.)

You guys might consider that she charges faster now, so it might not be a problem that she actually needs charges for her combos. Besides, I don't think that's any bad.

[BatousaiJ]

Didn't all of use 3C -> falling jC to do combos to begin with anyway?

If I remember correctly though, the untechable time for 3C sweep was changed but I don't know how it is currently.

It seems my initial assessment of them going with the idea "needs charge to do stuff but gets charge faster" is the way they're going with it and I can definitely get behind that. Only time will tell how quick we'll be able to get charge given they seem adamant on making us be in CH while charging, it will be more dangerous than ever to charge outside of legit knockdowns and slides.

Looking forward to figuring out new strategies and combos when the patch hits though, it's going to be a bit sad to say good bye to my ghetto throw mugen combos but in with the new, out with the old.

[Airk]

I also like how hitbox of her normals are still the same,

See, I think this is an unreasonable assumption. How many changes in the loktest lists for ANY character said stuff like "2B hitbox is bigger" or "6A hitbox fixed"? None that I can recall. In fact, the word "hitbox" has been essentially absent from the change lists. Of all the parts of the game that I can feel confident in saying we have absolutely no bleeding idea whether they changed anything, hitboxes are it. This isn't exactly the sort of thing that you notice while you're fighting.

It's entirely possible they fixed a ton of stuff, but the stuff that gets listed in these changelogs (in addition to being nigh incomprehensible thanks to the language/terminology barrier) is ONLY stuff that people can notice while they're basically screwing around with the game. Basing any sort of serious analysis about technical aspects off it is a really bad idea.

[STenSatsu]

They say she is stronger and that's all I care about outside of her overall gameplay being similar to CS and stil fun. Can learn whatever new combos she has as long as they don't take a year to happen lol.

[pktazn]

Yea, I'm pretty satisfied that they said she's stronger. That's enough hope for me though the final product may slap me down hard haha. I don't mind having to re-learn combos and such, it's not that big of a deal for me personally. The loketest is still going on right?

[Rhiya]

- 2C's head invincibility has fewer frames. If done early, it'll stuff moves, which then it'll be powerful.

- (I'm thinking 6A is slower since it's a nerf, but the "緩くなった" says otherwise. Someone verify.)

- 236236D lost its invincibility. If done early, the crest will show, and all of the charge and gauge will deplete. (DAAAAYYYYUUUUMMMMMM)

[KayEff]

Follow eirei's translation, he's approved so he's a lot more credible than me.

Tsubaki

j214 bounces off opponent on block, harder to be counterattacked.

j214D is mid, was high in previous loketest.

2C has less upper-body invincibility. You can get hit out of it before it even comes out. Still a strong move.

6A has less proration.

236236D lost invincibility. Uses up meter and shows superflash before the move actually hits.

[pktazn]

236236D lost invincibility. Uses up meter and shows superflash before the move actually hits.

Arcsys... why? ;_____;

[Zeromus_X]

j214D is mid, was high in previous loketest.

So this means j214D is no longer an overhead? This "mid" and "high" stuff kind of confuses me.

[STenSatsu]

Correct. Completely expected tbh. 13 frame overhead is a bit much in bb and the other dives are still decent speed. A and B dive are also not too bad on block. The only thing I'm worried about is that you don't really get anything off it. Even with RC it's pretty rough.

Less proration on 6a is nice. Might be nice to actually do a combo instead of using it to just get a bar of charge or a reset.

2c worse is kinda meh. Probably just have to do it later.

[HiagoX]

So this means j214D is no longer an overhead? This "mid" and "high" stuff kind of confuses me.

Yep. High means it's an overhead, and mid means you can block it either way.

[BatousaiJ]

Tsubaki

j214 bounces off opponent on block, harder to be counterattacked. Very interesting, maybe against certain match ups we won't even need to RC to be safe after block(given the don't have a long poke)

j214D is mid, was high in previous loketest. Too good to be true is proven as such, so much for my TK overhead dreams.

2C has less upper-body invincibility. You can get hit out of it before it even comes out. Still a strong move. More of a reason to throw in 5B in the mix as a anti-air depending on the angle, I suppose.

6A has less proration. You mean we can do damage more than 2k off our overhead option now? Joy~

236236D lost invincibility. Uses up meter and shows superflash before the move actually hits. People shouldn't be using this outside of Mugen combo enders anyhow.

[Kiba]

Tsubaki

j214 bounces off opponent on block, harder to be counterattacked. Very interesting, maybe against certain match ups we won't even need to RC to be safe after block(given the don't have a long poke)

This is kinda good for us. Usually after an air combo and then charge its either an unsafe dive or you drop straight down (unless you did JC-JC236A-J214C and then air dash). Now we can use this move to keep on the offense in some circumstances. I wonder just how far the bounce is.

2C has less upper-body invincibility. You can get hit out of it before it even comes out. Still a strong move. More of a reason to throw in 5B in the mix as a anti-air depending on the angle, I suppose.

We can see now that they are upping Tsubaki's offensive options and decreasing the ability of her defensive options. This just means we may have to fire out 2c earlier or just block and take it.

236236D lost invincibility. Uses up meter and shows superflash before the move actually hits. People shouldn't be using this outside of Mugen combo enders anyhow.

I agree. Although I know some people use this on wakeup because they prefer it to the DP but I wouldn't recommend it at all. This isn't really a big deal to be honest.

[pktazn]

Although I know some people use this on wakeup because they prefer it to the DP but I wouldn't recommend it at all. This isn't really a big deal to be honest.

Tbh this was the reason I was slightly sad but I only do that to my friends for the lulz because they don't expect it. Guess I can't do that anymore though haha. In the end, yea I agree it's not that big a deal.

[BatousaiJ]

Tbh this was the reason I was slightly sad but I only do that to my friends for the lulz because they don't expect it. Guess I can't do that anymore though haha. In the end, yea I agree it's not that big a deal.

If you've got the meter and need a "get out of my face!" move, just go for A-DP and RC it if they block it, if they block your DD, you'll be vulnerable to counter attack but you won't with the RC DP method.

Although I agree it often trades with whatever your opponent is mashing on your wake up but it'll at least reset the positions so you can get yourself situated.

[pktazn]

Ah okay, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!

[Airk]

236236D lost invincibility. Uses up meter and shows superflash before the move actually hits. People shouldn't be using this outside of Mugen combo enders anyhow.

I kindof disagree with your assessment. Yes, that'll be the best/only way to use it NOW, but since they had apparently added more invincibility earlier, it would have been a very nice reversal. Reversals are HANDY. Not just when waking up either, but for breaking up blockstrings. When you have something that starts as fast as that move does and has good invulnerability, it makes people have to respect you on defense. Losing the invincibility is, to me, extremely unfortunate. 623A has twice the startup of the super, and is just inferior in this regard.

I for one am very sad to see this go. I think it SUCKS to have yet ANOTHER move that is basically designated "never use outside of combos". I think that's rotten.

[BatousaiJ]

I kindof disagree with your assessment. Yes, that'll be the best/only way to use it NOW, but since they had apparently added more invincibility earlier, it would have been a very nice reversal. Reversals are HANDY. Not just when waking up either, but for breaking up blockstrings. When you have something that starts as fast as that move does and has good invulnerability, it makes people have to respect you on defense. Losing the invincibility is, to me, extremely unfortunate. 623A has twice the startup of the super, and is just inferior in this regard.

I for one am very sad to see this go. I think it SUCKS to have yet ANOTHER move that is basically designated "never use outside of combos". I think that's rotten.

You can DP on wake up just the same as you can DD in the same window of opportunity(as is now) but then again, doing either of those things more often then "every other blue moon" is a bad idea as far as play style goes.

Using up all your charges and 50% heat for a possible reversal that gets punished on block... err... I don't think that the best choice. If you really need someone out of your face and don't mind using up your meter, go for DP + RC(if necessary) or counter assault(dead angle). Tsubaki players apparently use counter assaults so rarely that when I do it online, many say they've never seen that "move" before.

Every time you give yourself a chance to be punished on block, you should remember what you did and try not to do it again. I see tons of Tsubaki players using her incredibly unsafe, DPing/DD on wake up constantly, abusing j214, 236 moves without RC and wonder when they get crushed what they're doing wrong. Play safer, leave yourself open less and take risks when the benefits outweigh the possible negatives.

That's a philosophy that's not exclusive to Tsubaki but to everyone in the roster of every fighting game.

[Airk]

You can DP on wake up just the same as you can DD in the same window of opportunity(as is now) but then again, doing either of those things more often then "every other blue moon" is a bad idea as far as play style goes.

Well, if they sucked less, you'd use them more often. I don't see how "you shouldn't be doing that often, so making it an even worse idea to do it isn't a nerf" makes sense.

Also, I'm not A) Talking about wakeup and B) understanding how a move with 10 startup frames and less invulnerability is usable in "just the same window" as a move with 5 startup frames and invulnerabiltiy until the first active frame.

Using up all your charges and 50% heat for a possible reversal that gets punished on block... err... I don't think that the best choice.

If you're doing your reversal properly, which you should be since it (used to be) invulnerable until it hits, getting blocked isn't really a problem. And "using up all your charges" probably just equates to 3, max. It's not like you're running around at full charge all the time so you can waste it on this. Or if you are managing to be at full charge all the time, it's not a big deal to get it back. :P

If you really need someone out of your face and don't mind using up your meter, go for DP + RC(if necessary) or counter assault(dead angle). Tsubaki players apparently use counter assaults so rarely that when I do it online, many say they've never seen that "move" before.

Well, you'll see even less of it now, since apparently they're nerfing Counter Assaults in the current Loktest. -_-

Every time you give yourself a chance to be punished on block, you should remember what you did and try not to do it again.

To some extent, I disagree. What you should be doing is remembering what you did when you actually DO get punished on block. If people don't punish you, or you don't actually get blocked, then feel free to keep it up until you find some reason not to. Yes, this means if you play a ton of scrubs, you'll learn more slowly, but frankly, I don't think playing a ton of scrubs is going to be a great learning experience either way.

Besides, you may not even know you could've been punished on block if your move hits/doesn't get punished so learning from those experiences is...difficult.

take risks when the benefits outweigh the possible negatives.

Right, so why should we shrug when we're told that one of our options now has even more risk? Because it wasn't always the best choice before? I know I for one was hoping for MORE options for using moves outside combos, not less.

[BatousaiJ]

The reason why I say A-DP and DD can be used in the same window is because realistically the situations where you would use them would work just the same for both...the 5 startup frame will make a difference in theorycrafting but in real application the results will be nearly identical. Feel free to watch all the good Tsubakis play in gamechariot, acho and count how many of them use D-DD as a counter to see what I mean. Also, lets not underplay the importance of charges, we all should know that you can do even with two charges and using them up in a instant is rather depressing. In my book, a rather clear case of the bad outweighing the good on this case but do as you'd like.

Well, if I'm preparing to fight and win against a bunch of people that never block, there wouldn't be any need to prepare. It's because I constantly play against skilled players(using better characters) that I learn quickly what's safe and what isn't. Part of that whole "experience" factor assumes that you're playing against people that aren't complete scrubs, you wouldn't learn anything that way.

As for shrugging when our options have more risk, we could always ask for more but we work with the hand we're dealt.

I'm not interested in crying over something that we lost or we were never going to get in the first place but rather on how we can apply the tools that we have to make for a more solid playstyle.

Oh and I hear they're nerfing IBs as well in a possible way to encourage the usage of counter assaults but who knows.

There's too much that's in the air right now as to how things are going to turn out both in the singular character by character sense and in the fundamental system side. The real fun will begin when the patch comes out and we're all pulling together to make new combos and strategies =d.

[STenSatsu]

D DD is mostly a wake up thing at low charges imo. Wakeup is where A DP ends up trading all day thanks to meatys. It's also kind of nice against gadget finger iirc. I believe it hits him out of A Sledge where DP would get you hit for 4k+. Either way it was extremely situational but still something that had some use that we lost. Now it will literally never be used unless you have 100 meter against Tager and land a mugen starter. j.236d is already relegated to combo filler for like 1 combo, not sure why they turned D DD into it also.

[Airk]

D DD is mostly a wake up thing at low charges imo. Wakeup is where A DP ends up trading all day thanks to meatys. It's also kind of nice against gadget finger iirc. I believe it hits him out of A Sledge where DP would get you hit for 4k+. Either way it was extremely situational but still something that had some use that we lost. Now it will literally never be used unless you have 100 meter against Tager and land a mugen starter. j.236d is already relegated to combo filler for like 1 combo, not sure why they turned D DD into it also.

That pretty much sums up my feelings, with greater weight of experience and accuracy. Thank you.