[CS1] Noel Chain Revoler Pressure Discussion

[archling]

ZzZZz.. imo, wrong way to go. System is too limited for Noel to have any sort of pressure.

[Mizzet]

Not really chain revolver but pressure related, but lately I've had some success ending a blockstring with 236a and following up with 5b or 5c. 236a is +0 on block, I catch a lot of counterhits with the 5b and 5c. Space it right and it's out of range of faster jabs/grabs, and Noel's 5b and 5c stuff most mid range options due to their speed. 5c is really excellent, I would be quite lost in CS without it.

Of course, 236a is vulnerable to being attacked out of it's startup, so exercise your own judgment and don't fall into a readable pattern.

[dragontamer]

As far as 'offensive' pressure is concerned, I haven't really gone and experimented, but I would be looking for a 'relatively' safe way to get to d.6b, 6d, or d.6c, as these are her mixup and guard primer removing options. I'm skeptical if it's even possible as they are understandably slower, seeing as they have higher rewards.

The easy answer is that... d.6C will link to d.6B on normal block, and is a 3-frame hole on instant-block. It is a 3-frame hole to 6D... 8 frames on instant-block. So d.6B will beat out grabs and jabs, while the 6D low is less safe (d.6C is one of those really really easy attacks to instant block...)

EDIT: I had a very wrong paragraph here. Removed.

As for getting d.6C out... it is very meaty, and it is also slow. There may be reset opportunities avaliable for it. That would be the easiest way to get it. But because it hits mid, it doesn't seem too useful for that.

Another possibility is somehow getting j.D canceled d.6C on a waking up opponent. In Training Mode, I have been able to do j.236236D on a jumping opponent in the corner. Then, when landing, do a 66 -> Instant Air Dash -> j.d cancel d.6C. It beats all rolls except emergency roll. IE: They are forced to be blocking on neutral wakeup.

Outside the corner, I'd expect backwards roll to be safe, but you're still forcing your opponent to wakeup reversal or wakeup+block the d.6C. If they have 2 primers left, goodbye (d.6C -> 623D == bye bye two primers).

Hopefully, someone else will find a more useful setup. But thats what I got for now.

I feel though, while individual drive attacks are much faster and arguably safer, what exactly do you gain by making someone sit through "5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B -> 6A"? It hits mid all the way, doesn't hurt their guard stock in CS (unlike CT, it was good for that back then) - you're basically aiming to catch someone trying to poke or grab out, which still happens though, but if you ask me, not often enough to make it a appealing option as opposed to just getting out of drive with defensive options. Especially now that sitting in a drive blockstring doesn't hurt their guard libra, there isn't as much pressure on the opponent to try and escape.

I haven't experimented myself. But here's my idea at least.

A relatively safe offensive string (such as 5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B) is for testing the waters. You want to figure out what your opponents instincts are. Is he blocking low? Is he blocking high? Is he mashing backdash?

If he's blocking low the whole time, next time you get into 5D, start throwing in d.6B. If he's blocking high, then throw in the occasional 6D. If he's mashing, stay safe, get your little combo out of 5D -> 5B -> etc. etc. until you train your opponent to stop mashing.

With regards to defensive chain revolver options on block </snip>

This is perhaps the best use of chain revolver at the moment. I agree with you. If you screw up and get into Drive against a good opponent, try to finishs safely. Note, d.5B is technically less safe than 236D (-13 frames on 236D, and -17 frames on d.5B). However, most opponents won't run in while you are in chain revolver mode... thats the stupidest move possible. So based on the opponents I have faced... d.5B is the safest way to finish, even if it is technically more punishable.

I am pretty sure that if the first hit of 236D is even Instant blocked, then the opponent is always forced to block the 2nd hit. At least, my training mode experience seems to demonstrate this.

[Mizzet]

A relatively safe offensive string (such as 5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B) is for testing the waters. You want to figure out what your opponents instincts are. Is he blocking low? Is he blocking high? Is he mashing backdash?

If he's blocking low the whole time, next time you get into 5D, start throwing in d.6B. If he's blocking high, then throw in the occasional 6D. If he's mashing, stay safe, get your little combo out of 5D -> 5B -> etc. etc. until you train your opponent to stop mashing.

This sounds pretty valid, I might actually do it once in awhile so I get a nice look at my opponent's blocking habits if I feel it's worth the risk.

[dragontamer]

This sounds pretty valid, I might actually do it once in awhile so I get a nice look at my opponent's blocking habits if I feel it's worth the risk.

I confirmed this last night in training mode btw: the 5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B -> 6A string punishes those who mash back-jump, at least the 5B / 6A part. I tested it for Noel vs Noel (Noel has a 4 frame jump in CT), you'll hit your opponent while they're in the jumping animation.

You can't block while jumping. Its a tiny 3 to 6 frame hole (in CT), but 5B and 6A offer enough blockstun and come out fast enough to punish "up-back" mashers. Then ( (Drive) 5B) -> 6A -> 6C -> etc. etc. for a simple little combo. Of course, they can escape if they instant-block... however... if they're instant-blocking, they're probably mashing back. Back Mashers will get hit by 5B when they backdash, but I can't think of any midscreen followups.

Edit: I'll test again tonight. It seems as if 5B -> 6A shouldn't punish Arakune and Litchi, assuming that their jump speeds are the same as in CT (3-frames of jump startup). I should also test vs Hazama, Tsubaki, and Mu12.

5B vs Backdash (ie: typically airborne) has the obvious combo in the corner. So really, this basic string covers a good amount of options. Most opponents can't mash back jump, backdashing is a bad idea vs 5B. That only really leaves reversals as the only good option, but as noted before, opponents don't always have reversals. (and if they do, this string becomes much less safe)

[dragontamer]

I've begun to experiment with (Drive) 6C setups. In particular, it is possible to space (Drive) 6C on Jin's wakeup such that 623C will whiff on Noel. And of course, when done correctly, it will beat Tager's 360A, Hazama's 214DB... I'm pretty sure it beats Hakumen's 2D / 6D, but I'll keep testing it. 0-frame reversals such as Litchi's 623D, Ragna's 623C, Jin's 623D (and if you space it wrong, 623C) , and most character's super-reversals will of course beat it.

46 active frames is the very definition of meaty. So many active frames, that you can simultaniously cover quick-rise, neutral tech and both rolls. But.. that still doesn't really help you vs Reversals, outside of Jin's 623C which can whiff on a properly spaced (Drive) 6C. Nevertheless, I think it has potential, so here's my current work:

2B -> 6A -> 6C -> j.D -> (Drive) 6B -> Emergency Roll Trap (Drive) 6C -> hit/block confirm

This seems to be the most applicable thing I've found, especially vs a bursted opponent. 6B -> 6A prorates like crazy, so this combo wouldn't have done much damage anyway. By placing a tech trap after (Drive) 6B, you not only provide a reset opportunity, but you can also go for a guard break. Against Bursted Hazama, Taokaka, or Noel, hitting them with (Drive) 6C -> (Drive) 6B -> 623D will break them, or at least greatly damage their barrier.

The (Drive) 6C -> 6B is free in some situations. Its a 4-frame trap vs instant-guarding opponents. Heatless Hazama / Taokaka / Noel can't reversal out of this, and Staffless Litchi can't get out of it either. Drive 6D is approximately 8-frames vs instant guarding opponents, but 3-frames on normal block. So 6D can lose to jabs and grabs if your opponent instant-blocks... but it may still be worth the mixup opportunity after you've trained your opponent to block high.

If your opponent sucessfully blocks (Drive) 6B or (Drive) 6D, you can force your opponent to block the 623D, thus breaking another primer. I suggest 236D or 236A/B if you want to end the Drive Chain safer.

(Corner launch) -> 6C -> j.D -> 6D -> 6B -> 5B -> 5C -> 632146D -> (whiff) 4D -> 6C (If you predict emergency roll)

(Corner launch) -> 6C -> j.D -> 6D -> 6B -> 5B -> 5C -> 632146D -> (whiff) j.D -> 6C (If you predict a normal wakeup)

This is a very typical situation for Noel, 632146D is a typical corner combo finisher, and it seems to give Noel a good amount of time. If your opponent plans for a normal wakeup (quick rise, neutral tech, forward / backward roll), the bottom option will either start a reset (into another corner combo, probably ending with 632146D again) or if the opponent neutral-tech + blocks, you enter the 6C trap I described earlier. Against forward / backward roll and quick-rise, you'll start a combo. Only Neutral Tech + block and Neutral Tech + reversal will get out of this safely.

(Super) -> j.D -> 6C should be slow enough that 6C on a down opponent will be a real reset, if they hope for a "blackbeat + escape".

(Super) -> 4D -> 6C is not a "solid" link on a emergency rolling opponent. At very least, Hakumen can escape by mashing 2D. I estimate ~5 or ~6 frame hole on the wakeup here (Hakumen's 5D gets counter-hit). Even worse, if the opponent waits for the blackbeat, he can forward air tech and escape the corner (because 4D -> 6C is a bit faster than j.D -> 6C). 4D -> 6C spaces you perfectly vs Jin's 623C, so vs Heatless Jin, its a very good option if you predict an emergency roll.

j.236236D in the corner -> 66 -> 96 -> j.D cancel -> 6C

This is what kick-started this experiment I'm doing. I don't expect it to be useful in actual combat. The 66 is for spacing, and the 96 instant-air dash and j.D cancel must be accomplished blind. The d.6C will start comming out as they fall after the j.236236D. Meh, if someone can figure out a use of this setup, I'd be impressed.

-------------

Obviously, wakeup reversals beat these sorts of Oki strategies. In addition, Tager's Sledge is immune to (Drive) 6C on the first frame, so he can use wakeup 236B to punish you pretty hard. Nevertheless, the idea of Guardbreak and Corner lockdown appeals to me. Nothing like Litchi's, but we gotta work with what we got.

[Atreides]

(Corner launch) -> 6C -> j.D -> 6D -> 6B -> 5B -> 5C -> 632146D -> (whiff) 4D -> 6C (If you predict emergency roll)

(Corner launch) -> 6C -> j.D -> 6D -> 6B -> 5B -> 5C -> 632146D -> (whiff) j.D -> 6C (If you predict a normal wakeup)

I assume you mean 5c > 236d > 632146d. I tried the normal wake up one, and I'm not sure how it's suppose to work. After 632146d, they are able wakeup as I'm landing from j.D and able to 5a/5b me out of d.6C startup.

2B -> 6A -> 6C -> j.D -> (Drive) 6B -> Emergency Roll Trap (Drive) 6C -> hit/block confirm

That works pretty well. They are forced to neutral tech and block after d.6B. If d.6B lands you can do 5D 623D 66C j.D d.6B d.6C into another reset, and if 6D lands you can do 2D 623D etc into another reset. It's only about 2.3k/2.8k for d.6B/6D respectively, but I guess it's better than nothing.

But the problem is, if they guessed right and IB the d.6B/6D it's hard to get out safely. At mid level play, you don't really have to worry about them IBing your escape option unless you constantly do it, or you fight the same person a lot of times.

[dragontamer]

I assume you mean 5c > 236d > 632146d. I tried the normal wake up one, and I'm not sure how it's suppose to work. After 632146d, they are able wakeup as I'm landing from j.D and able to 5a/5b me out of d.6C startup.

Yeah, I forgot the 236d > 632146d part.

Overall, I WANT to find something, I've noted a lot of flaws about this "setup", which is why I'm discussing it. In the original post: Even worse, if the opponent waits for the blackbeat, he can forward air tech and escape the corner. Thats the problem with 4D -> 6C, they blackbeat, then forward air tech after 6C. Slowing down with j.D -> 6C will reset (no blackbeat, its a new combo), but it has the flaws that you just noted. IE: if they emergency wakeup, they can recover before 6C lands.

However, at least in my experiments, if you turn off "emergency roll", j.D -> 6C comes out at the right time, a meaty wakeup as expected. So... j.D -> 6C is the "blackbeat punish". 4D -> 6C is the typical punish, but even that has its flaws. So its a "discussion starter", not really a recommended option yet.

I forgot to test j.D cancel -> 6C last night. I'll do it after work. I guess I should also test j.4D whiff -> 6C lol.

---------

That works pretty well. They are forced to neutral tech and block after d.6B. If d.6B lands you can do 5D 623D 66C j.D d.6B d.6C into another reset, and if 6D lands you can do 2D 623D etc into another reset. It's only about 2.3k/2.8k for d.6B/6D respectively, but I guess it's better than nothing.

Well, the cool thing about Noel's combos is that they really carries you into the corner and builds up a lot of heat. If we can figure out a true setup after corner 632146D, we'd be gold. You really only need one reset from anywhere to push your opponent into the corner.

But the problem is, if they guessed right and IB the d.6B/6D it's hard to get out safely. At mid level play, you don't really have to worry about them IBing your escape option unless you constantly do it, or you fight the same person a lot of times.

The safe way of doing this is (Drive) 6C -> 5B. Even on instant-block, it forces the opponent to block both attacks, and then 5B pushes them away. 5B flows well into another chain revolver if you want to keep going. No mixup, but you've broken one guard primer, so its better than nothing.

And of course, you can always just go 6B -> 623D -> Rapid. Noel probably will have the heat to do this, sooooo much heat gain, safe and it breaks another primer. 50 heat for a primer is kinda weak though :-(

[Atreides]

The safe way of doing this is (Drive) 6C -> 5B. Even on instant-block, it forces the opponent to block both attacks, and then 5B pushes them away. 5B flows well into another chain revolver if you want to keep going. No mixup, but you've broken one guard primer, so its better than nothing.

I mean after you attempted the mix up d.6C > d.6B/6D, it's not safe after that.

If you do j4d right after corner distortion, they are forced to block, but d.6B after will trade with 5 frame jabs on normal block.

[dragontamer]

I mean after you attempted the mix up d.6C > d.6B/6D, it's not safe after that.

I know. But if you want to play safe, there is no safer way to get the d.6B / 6D mixup than d.6C. So the only safer option is to use d.5B to push them away.

If you do j4d right after corner distortion, they are forced to block, but d.6B after will trade with 5 frame jabs on normal block.

However, the idea is to get d.6C to get them as a meaty wakeup option. j.4D is too slow and doesn't have enough active frames to be used as a serious Oki tool. d.6C is meaty, guard breaks, and offers the highest "continued chain revolver frame advantage".

Anyway, an opponent can just delay his wakeup. j.4D then either whiffs, or hits them with a blackbeat (instead of a reset), so its useless. Way too easy to escape. If we can somehow get d.6C on the wakeup ... Also, j.d cancel d.6C seems a tad too slow. Hakumen can 2D out of it on emergency roll.

Maybe I need to sacrifice the damage and instead go for a low damage corner setup. I mean, (blah) d.6B -> d.6C still works in the corner if the opponent is low enough as a tech trap, and I'm pretty sure d.5B -> d.6C can be made to work as well in the corner. Furthermore, there are all of Mizzet's standing combos that can be explored... potentially a moderate-damage standing or crouching combo into reset d.6C. Some sort of ground tech seems necessary if I want to get the pressure that I imagine however... (ie: something that beats even Hakumen's 6D/2D. Leaving only Reversals as a counter option)

Standing / crouching resets into clean d.6D and d.6B can also be explored. Ideally though, I'm aiming for guard crush resets: even if they block d.6C... they'll be losing their primers.

So I'm not giving up on this concept, but I'm giving up on 4k+ damage 632146D combo ender into some sort of d.6C wakeup.

----------

Its somewhat unfortunate: even if I do figure this out, it won't help the Tager Matchup at all. And it will only really help vs Staffless Litchi...

[dragontamer]

Just an update, now that I have more than a few days of experience with Noel.

5D still has the same problems as CT. It is very difficult to force an opponent to block 5D and enter chain revolver pressure. 24 frames of startup is just too much. Fortunately, 6B -> 5D is still available. Its a 6-frame hole, so the opponent can still jump and jab out of it, but at least most opponents won't be able to mash grab. Of course, this is on normal block. Fortunately, 6B -> 2D beats jabs but goes nowhere as far as pressure is concerned.

I've had a lot of success with the 5D -> d.5B -> d.6A etc. etc. blockstring, but I still can't figure out a safe way to exit chain revolver. d.5B and d.236D don't push them as far back and seem more punishable in CS than in CT.

EDIT: Damn, I miss +19 frames on optic barrel. It was a good way to start 5D

[Ichipoo]

I've had a lot of success with the 5D -> d.5B -> d.6A etc. etc. blockstring, but I still can't figure out a safe way to exit chain revolver. d.5B and d.236D don't push them as far back and seem more punishable in CS than in CT.

EDIT: Damn, I miss +19 frames on optic barrel. It was a good way to start 5D

I haven't been following this thread so bear with me please. Why not add 4D in your CR blockstrings? Unless it has a property that makes it mad unsafer than other CR moves.

[dragontamer]

5A -> 6A -> 6B is a solid link on (standing) normal block. (watch them crouchers).

Holy fucking shit.

I'm sorry for being so god damn wrong. I was fact-checking myself this morning, and this is very very wrong. It is not solid, but 6A offers the most blockstun that also gatlings into 6B. Much Apologies. I've edited my post to remove the stupidity.

6B on wakeup -> 5D applies if you read the paragraph before it was deleted, but I don't recommend 6A -> 6B as "standard" pressure.

[Chiizu]

Doesn't 6A whiff on crouchers? if it does i'm pretty sure you will get whacked real HARD as you can't gatling a whiffed blow into another one.

[dragontamer]

Doesn't 6A whiff on crouchers? if it does i'm pretty sure you will get whacked real HARD as you can't gatling a whiffed blow into another one.

Yeah, I erased that paragraph for a reason.

-------------

Update: I think I finally found it: what I consider to be Noel's correct Oki: Its built off of d.5C -> jump cancel -> j.D -> d.6B -> d.6C. The awesome thing about THIS reset, is that it practically can go anywhere a d.5C can go. It resets well, even with moderate proration.

For example: 5A 6A 6C j.D d.6D d.6B d.5C j.D d.6B (opponent Emergency Techs) d.6C. Normally, you'd do d.5C -> 236D for 2155 damage (or d.5C -> d.6B -> 236D for 2158). Or... you can do d.5C j.D d.6B for 2051 damage, and get really nice Oki off of it.

Virtually every combo I've tested can be ended with d.5C j.D d.6B d.6C Oki. Its about 100 less damage than Bloom Trigger, but Bloom Trigger doesn't give you d.6C Oki. As usual, delay the j.D so that it comes as late as possible. d.5C has an insane amount of untechable time.

You have precisely 2 more chain revolvers (or 3 including finisher). Here's your options:

Hits confirm, opponent wasn't blocking or was mashing on wakeup: d.6C 2D 5D 623D 66C j.D d.6D (etc. etc.) If you go to the corner, this reset can go for ~5k damage with Fenrir. d.6C also hits all wakeup-backdashers except for Tager. The combo is different because the opponent will be airborne... d.6C -> 5D -> 623D seems like a decent punish, 3.8k in the corner, 4.8k with fenrir.

Obviously, any opponent worth their salt will block. So here's your mixups:

High Mixup: d.6C -> d.6B (hit) -> d.5D -> 623D -> 66C j.D (etc. etc.). ~3k midscreen, 4k with fenrir in the corner. Very tight link. Delay the d.6C -> d.6B slightly to improve d.6C's "vacuum" effect. I managed to do it on Carl. However, a delayed d.6B won't be a solid blockstring.

Low Mixup: d.6C -> d.6D (hit) -> d.2D -> 623D -> 66C j.D (etc. etc). Easier combo IMO.

On instant-block, d.6B will counter-hit 5A / Throw mashers. d.6D is fast enough to counter-hit on normal block, but not on instant-block (3 frame hole on normal block, 8 frames on instant).

Low Mixup #2: d.6C -> 214A -> etc. etc. Easiest combo, but mashers will get you.

Instant Block + Chicken Guard punish (opponent is mashing up-back): d.6C (instant-blocked) -> d.6A -> d.6C -> dunno, 214A or 623D or something. Punishes Arakune's Chicken Guards on instant-block (fastest back-jumper). Note, d.6C must be at the "sweet spot" to punish chicken guarders. Fortunately, j.D -> d.6B -> d.6C seems to put them there.

Normal Block + Chicken Guard punish: d.6C (normal blocked) -> d.2D -> d.5D -> 623D -> 66C. Arakune can't jump out of this.

Three Primers: d.6C -> whatever -> d.6C -> 623D. Lol bursted opponents (except Tager).

Opponent gets too scared to tech: d.6B -> (Reload Guns) -> (wait a tick) -> 2A/2B -> 6C etc. etc.

Note: The 6C is meaty, so a Wakeup -> Chicken Guard will get punished by the d.6C, and you can go for that sweet 5k corner combo. Thus, the only other thing you have to worry about is Wakeup -> Block / Instant Block -> Chicken Guard as a possible escape. 2D covers normal block, 6A covers Instant Block.

Only wakeup reversals can punish this.

Do the reset correctly (ie: decent enough proration), and your opponent CANNOT air roll. Furthermore, the only roll avaliable at that moment would be the emergency tech (equivalent to a neutral tech). IE: there is no escape if the opponent techs. You're gonna get a black-beat or a ground "neutral" tech. Its that simple.

Unfortunately, this reset does NOT work in the corner. So don't bother trying. It only works midscreen.

**************

Other options / Similar Setups:

j.D -> d.6A -> (tech) -> d.6C will cause an air-tech after most combos. A back air-roll will escape Noel, but in the corner, it doesn't really matter. d.6C will hit them. That leaves forward roll, which d.6A -> reload -> air grab will catch them.

Thus, I argue that j.D -> d.6A is for the corner. After all, none of the j.D -> d.6B stuff works in the corner. Well... I lied, j.D -> d.6B -> reload puts you at ~+5 frames vs emergency tech, but you don't get any free guard primer break + mixup oppoertunities. Then again, d.6B -> reload is the safest bet for Oki.

j.D -> d.6B -> reload guns puts you at about +4 frames or maybe +5 frames if the opponent emergency techs. Otherwise, he'll be doing a forward/backwards/neutral/quick roll... but thats much slower than an emergency tech, and d.6B -> reload -> 2B will catch those. Obviously, if they reversal like an idiot, you can block. Lol.

I plan to make a video eventually so that you guys can see it in action.

Weakness I can think of: wakeup reversals, especially if the opponent is reacting to the d.6C. Note that Yukkikaze can be Rapided out of, because d.6C is considered a true projectile.

[Mizzet]

Looks promising, I haven't been bb'ing lately but I'll try it out once I can drag myself away from sc2, lol. Yeah it's a pity d.6c isn't as effective in the corner, when I was experimenting with d.6c used mid combo I had to rule out use of them in the corner as d.6c whiffs 'off' the side of the screen.

[dragontamer]

Looks promising, I haven't been bb'ing lately but I'll try it out once I can drag myself away from sc2, lol. Yeah it's a pity d.6c isn't as effective in the corner, when I was experimenting with d.6c used mid combo I had to rule out use of them in the corner as d.6c whiffs 'off' the side of the screen.

Its plenty effective in the corner from the right distance. Here's a poor setup: Assume opponent will emergency tech. (blah) -> j.6D -> d.236D -> Fenrir -> 4D (whiff on opponent's tech... for spacing) -> d.6C. Problem is, if they are lazy, they can eat the blackbeat 4D and then forward tech to escape.

On the other hand, 4D in the corner spaces you out perfectly to do a d.6C. I gave up on making this work btw... but thats how far I've gotten.

And sc2 is awesome, but I promised myself to never get that deep into Starcraft again. I'm remaining casual on that one. None of my RL friends want to play with me

********************

Also, before the flood of questions arrive... be sure to do d.5C -> DELAY -> j.D -> d.6B. Else, the opponent will be able to tech the j.D.

[Ichipoo]

This looks REALLY good dragontamer! But I'm more of a visual learner, It'd be great if someone would record your findings if it's not too much trouble.

And lol I haven't been BBing much either Mizzet, you're not alone lol.

[dragontamer]

This looks REALLY good dragontamer! But I'm more of a visual learner, It'd be great if someone would record your findings if it's not too much trouble.

And lol I haven't been BBing much either Mizzet, you're not alone lol.

I have a EzCap driver. I'll make a video... eventually...

EDIT: Video Is done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM385yf1jg8

I've officially spammed this forum 4 times with it

[dragontamer]

Okay, I'm compiling the list for countering various reveral attempts.

1. Jin's Wakeup 623C whiffs. d.6C recovers before Jin does. You have more than enough time to 3C or 5D counter-hit to punish the whiffed 623C, even after whiffing the d.6C yourself.

2. Litchi's Tsubame Gaeshi does not launch you. You can Counter-hit 3C her, but not 5D or 5C. I doubt you can Haida loop without rapid or the corner. However, 3C Counter-hit will start a staffless litchi game.

3. Litchi's All Green whiffs, and d.6C counter-hits. Go crazy.

4. Bang's 2D and 5D are not wakeup reversals, and d.6C will counter-hit him. Bang's 6D is a wakeup reversal, but is so slow that d.6C -> d.2D will counter-hit, even if Bang teleports. I guess Bang can teleport to the opposite side of the screen to escape however.

5. Bang's Daifunka can be reacted to and escaped. d.6C -> (DAIFUNKA!!! Super Flash) -> 214D escapes. Your opponent wastes 50% heat, and you get out safely.

6. Tager can Wakeup Sledge. Both Sledges are beaten by 214D... but reacting to Sledge A seems tough. Wakeup 360A is not a reversal, so it gets counter-hit by d.6C. 720C eats you, so be careful. I don't recommend this vs Tager. j.D -> d.6A on the other hand, holds promise vs Tager: it allows an air tech, and Tager's aerial options are very limited compared to his ground ones. d.6A -> reload keeps Noel on the advantage. d.6A -> d.6C punishes neutral techs, and airborne Tager will probably lose to 4D otherwise if he's aggressive, and air grabs if he's defensive.

7. Hakumen's Yukikaze can be rapided out of, because d.6C is considered a true projectile. 6D and 2D can also be rapided -> backdash, but thats IMO impractical in a real battle. I also don't recommend this vs Hakumen. The d.6A isn't too good either, because Hak's j.D is very good as well.

8. Ragna, Makoto, and Mu-12's dragon punches beat this clean. The d.6B -> reload guns is a good place to drop if you want to be blocking on their wakeup. d.6A seems useful vs Mu-12, but Ragna and Makoto have aerial dragon-punches.

9. Lambda's Gravity Well whiffs (not enough range). Punish with 214A (only thing fast enough after d.6C). Her wakeup super will kinda pwn you though...

[Doren2k]

Good shit dude. I gotta try this out!

[dragontamer]

Here's a character-by-character analysis.

Characters who have no options, no matter their heat:

* Litchi -- 3C after her 623D. All Green whiffs.

* Bang -- 214D the Daifunka

* Rachel -- Lol

At best, Bang can escape the d.6C safely (wakeup 6D teleport as far away as possible). Be sure to react to Daifunka with 214D. Litchi literally has no option but to block the d.6C.

Characters who need at least 50% heat to wakeup-reversal

Pretty much, these need a super

* Noel

* Taokaka

* Carl

* Hazama -- sometimes Hotenjin whiffs, I dunno why though Most of the time Hotenjin trades, and then you'll still get comboed.

* Lambda (Gravity Well whiffs)

Characters who need 25% heat to wakeup-reversal:

* Jin -- 623C doesn't work, so the better 623D or Arrows of Ice need to be used.

Characters who don't need any heat to escape:

* Tager -- Wakeup Sledge

* Ragna -- Wakeup DP

* Makoto -- Wakeup DP

* Tsubaki -- 623A trades.

* Arakune -- Backdash escapes safely.

For these characters, you may want to end with just d.6B to have some sort of block avaliable on their wakeup.

[Seifuuku]

wake up steel rain

[Runis]

I think (need to get home and test) steel rain falls under daifunka rules, 214D beats it.

[dragontamer]

I think (need to get home and test) steel rain falls under daifunka rules, 214D beats it.

Steel Rain is even slower than Daifunka. If you can react to Daifunka, you can react to Steel Rain (uhhh... 40 frames? If you did d.6C as soon as you can after d.6B, d.6C will continue attacking for another 17 frames. 214D takes 3 frames to become invincible, so thats a total of ~20 frames when you are vulnerable.

Daifunka may have 18 frames of startup, but Bang still needs to "dash" to you (you're about mid distance after the d.6B setup) That gives you the few extra frames to sucessfully do a 214D, all the time, every time.