[CS1] Noel Chain Revoler Pressure Discussion

[dragontamer]

I am still an extremely scrubby CS Noel still... but I want to start a discussion on this. Holy crap, chain revolver has gotten a lot better. I'd like to discuss the possibility of true "Chain Revolver Pressure".

Before you laugh me off the stage, hear me out. First, I spent a few hours in training mode today estimating the frame advantages of every chain revolver hit. The results are surprising...

(All the following are Chain Revolver Drives)

6C +23 Frames !! (at the "sweetpoint")

j.4D +16 Frames

6A +15 Frames

5B +15 Frames

6B +13 Frames

5D / Followup 5D +13 Frames

4D / Followup 4D +12Frames

6D / Followup 6D +11 Frames

5C +10 Frames

5A +8 Frames

2D +6 Frames

(Drive) 6C -> 5B is a seamless, unbreakable blockstring, much like CT 5A spam. Even if the opponent instant blocks, he can't do anything between (Drive) 6C -> 5B.

Under a more typical regular block, 5D -> 5A, 6B -> 5A, 6A -> 5A, j.4D->5A, and 6C->5A are also seamless blockstrings. (6C -> 5A links even on instant-block).

This means that if your opponent blocks 5D, 6B, or 6A... you can use 5A to screw up the timing of his reversal. With 13 frames and almost no hitstop, 5A screws with your chain-revolver timing enough to make reversal much harder to do. Hakumen still has a 1-frame 1-button counter, but most characters require say... 623C or a more complicated string (720 or 236236) to pull off a reversal.

Literally, 5A shifts the timing of your opponents reversal by 8 frames.

Furthermore, compared to CT, there are some reasonably safe strings that seem to lead to easy damage. Like this one:

5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B -> 6A -> 236B

Now, pretend that the 5D actually lands on the opponent's block, 5D -> 5B is a 4-frame hole, 5B -> 6A is a 3-frame hole, and 6A -> 5B is a 2-frame hole. Any of those holes can be "patched" with 5A to shift the correct timing of your opponent's reversal. As far as damage, (Drive) 5B -> 6A -> 6C -> (delay) -> 623D -> 66C -> j.D -> etc. etc. deals a good amount of damage IIRC. (~3k)... probably more if I knew of Noel's better combos. >_<

Anyway, these are my thoughts on Chain Revolver pressure. Anyone have experience they'd like to contribute?

[Mizzet]

One thing I feel in CS is even when you're executing frame-trappy drive strings utilizing d.5b for example, you tend to get less counterhits from people trying to get out or something, compared to CT. I think the reason for this is because drive is so much faster in CS so it's more intimidating, people tend to just block and ride it out if they aren't good enough to try (or mash) a DP. CT drive is comparatively slow as molasses and people are more inclined to try and poke or grab you out of it. If there were reasonably safe ways to get to d.6b or 6d while in drive state, that would be pretty interesting.

That said, if I understand that list right, all those are frame advantages on block? They are all positive on block? Seems kind of unlikely so maybe I'm missing something.

I'll take note of d.6c > d.5b being safe, that's definitely useful.

[mooyang90]

So say opponent is mashing DP after you do 5D. If you do a follow-up d. 5a will you land a counter-hit?

[DC]

Eh? Almost all of her drives are + on block? Where is the data you're looking at btw? I still haven't seen it tbh.

Furthermore there exists buffering in this game, such that an opponent can mash DP near the end of blockstun and it will come out on the first available frame.

[mooyang90]

Yea, now that I think about it...if she has that much frame advantage/block stun on her drives then you shouldn't be able to just hold up+back against drive block strings the whole time. How did you calculate these frames?

[kro_]

That said, if I understand that list right, all those are frame advantages on block? They are all positive on block? Seems kind of unlikely so maybe I'm missing something.

I think it just means the amount of block stun you get from doing a particular drive move. So if you subtract the startup of the next move you're going to do from the move you just did you'll have the frame advantage. So going from d.6c > d.5b should be +5 or higher if it is to be safe when IBed. This should also mean that 5D -> 5A, 6B -> 5A, 6A -> 5A, j.4D->5A, and 6C->5A are all +0-5 if they are safe when normal blocked. I didn't double-check though.

So say opponent is mashing DP after you do 5D. If you do a follow-up d. 5a will you land a counter-hit?

No, the blockstring is tight if they don't instant block. However, there's pretty much nothing you can do after d.5a that is airtight except flash kick.

I usually use chain revolver pretty heavily when I play Noel. The windows to reversal are smaller, d.5a can mess up the timing, and few characters can actually punish a blocked d.5b. It's a lot safer than it used to be, but then again most opponents will just block everything since j.2d is no longer an overhead and wait for the string to end before trying to counterattack.

[Halcyone3]

what e meant was that d.5A is "like he said" a seamless blockstring, no frame holes. So if the opponent tried to DP before the d.5A, he never gets the chance to since as nice as DPs are, they dont cancel block-stun.

*Literally, 5A shifts the timing of your opponents reversal by 8 frames.*

the blockstun of d.5A is 8 frames, which is long enough that it won't let DPs come out anyway thanks to BB's buffering (i forget how many frames a move is buffered by, pretty sure its less than 8 though). Remember that its not just 8 frames, the DP is meant to come out before the d.5A, so the execution could be done like 2-3 frames before d.5A connects, making it longer. And no, you wouldn't CH, the opponent would still be in blockstun, he can't do anything that'd get him countered.

i wuldnt try it vs ragna btw. In his attempt to do a DP folow-up he can DP again, happens every time i clash with his DP, so he may still DP you.

[Mizzet]

Ragna CS guide has his C DP at 7f startup, I think it's long enough that there will be situations (in chain revolver) where it's literally impossible to DP out without IB.

[dragontamer]

Eh? Almost all of her drives are + on block? Where is the data you're looking at btw? I still haven't seen it tbh.

Simple: First, I spent a few hours in training mode today estimating the frame advantages of every chain revolver hit.

Right there at the top. The data didn't exist before. I don't guarantee accuracy, but I estimated the frames to the best of my ability. I tested the "important" bits, such as (Drive) 6C -> 5B being safe on instant block using the "Block first hit only" feature of training mode, as well as a recorded move.

Archling sent me some frame data that sped up the tests I did... but ultimately, the data above is the result of my own work.

Furthermore there exists buffering in this game, such that an opponent can mash DP near the end of blockstun and it will come out on the first available frame.

I understand buffering. Try my claims in training mode, and try mashing dragon punches in training mode. There are no "first available" frames in the links I mentioned. This means that Chain Revolver now has TRUE pressure strings available to it, unlike in CT.

the blockstun of d.5A is 8 frames, which is long enough that it won't let DPs come out anyway thanks to BB's buffering (i forget how many frames a move is buffered by, pretty sure its less than 8 though). Remember that its not just 8 frames, the DP is meant to come out before the d.5A, so the execution could be done like 2-3 frames before d.5A connects, making it longer. And no, you wouldn't CH, the opponent would still be in blockstun, he can't do anything that'd get him countered.

Woops, d.5A has ~16 frames of blockstun. Its +8 frames on block, but 16 frames of hitstun. Sorry, it shifts the timing by +16 frames...

Yea, now that I think about it...if she has that much frame advantage/block stun on her drives then you shouldn't be able to just hold up+back against drive block strings the whole time. How did you calculate these frames?

I did a string with a recorded dummy. I then mashed various known attacks (such as Ragna's 5A) until I found the attack that tied the attack string. When a double-counter-hit occurred, I repeated the test with an attack 1 frame slower, and 1 frame faster to make sure that the respective attacks won over.

I used archling's frame data to figure out the startup frames of the various chain revolver attacks. From that, I can calculate the +Frames for all chain revolvers. Of course, this is still subject to human error, so please test it yourself. Think of this as a starting point, and not "the truth". More like an estimate of the truth.

[Zero000]

Can we make this clear. Remove all the plus signs and add minus for them because you are NOT plus frames, you're just covering up the how many plus frames with a hitbox

[Xie]

Yeah... looks like people are getting a little defensive in here, let's see if we can clear up the misunderstanding a little bit.

"Frame advantage" in fighting game terms (and in BlazBlue no less) refers to the advantage you get when you let the move completely end without canceling it.

So... in short, chain revolver blockstrings are not actually "plus frames" or "frame advantage", because if you let a chain revolver move completely end without canceling it there is a very long "I'm putting my guns away" animation. Which, I'm sure you've noticed has gotten you punched in the face by Bang.

Which brings me to my point, what you're describing isn't actually "frame advantage" but rather "number of frames your opponent is in blockstun before you cancel into the next move." or "number of frames your opponent is in blockstun before your next move hits", which is legitimate research, but distinctly different from what you're actually saying.

This is actually a very important distinction rather than potato/tomato type stuff because it actually denotes how safe the move is on instant block and how effective it is as a frame trap when you rapid cancel it. After all, if you're forced to cancel an attack to make it safe, if there is some kind of framegap between the two hits, anything can happen, but that's really all about opponent's skill from here on.

I'm glad you're researching Noel's attacks, but this distinction needs to be made between "frame advantage" and what you are actually researching. It is very confusing to both veterans and beginner alike if you use the wrong terminology.

On a side note, with regards to "first frame available" special attacks, I'm fairly confident that attacks actually do come out on the first frame if inputted correctly. There is a very simple proof to this: Hazama's 3c and Ragna's 5b are exactly -6 and -7 on block respectively, and Litchi's Ryuuisou is exactly 6 frame startup. It is possible to punish either of those moves on normal block if inputted properly.

[severin]

Also, here's some numbers for the actual frame difference on block for drive moves (as in, letting the move completely end without cancelling it)

5a: -25

6a: -21

5b: -17

6b: -31

5c: -35

6c: -20

5d: -23

2d: -30

6d: -16

4d: -26

j.4d: -26

Bloom Trigger: -13

Assault Through: -9

Spring Raid: -34

j.d is a bit difficult to really get numbers for, as it all depends on height.

[4r5]

and here's some startup

5a: 13

6a: 18

5b: 17

6b: 21

5c: 21

6c: 23

5d: 20

2d: 19

6d: 26

4d: 25

j.4d: ?

Bloom Trigger: 20

Assault Through: 31

Spring Raid: 8

and move levels

5a: 3

6a: 3

5b: 4

6b: 4

5c: 4

6c: 3

5d: 4

2d: 4

6d: 3

4d: 4

j.4d: ?

Bloom Trigger: 4

Assault Through: 4

Spring Raid: 4

and now people can start discussing things like strings and traps

[severin]

j.4D starts up 15f after you hit the ground, and is lvl4

[dragontamer]

Yeah... looks like people are getting a little defensive in here, let's see if we can clear up the misunderstanding a little bit.

Understood. Its just that unlike a gatling, which cancels during the active frames... chain revolver attacks cancel sometime after the active frames. I guess I should have clarified at the beginning. You describe the situation exactly, its the number of frames your opponent is in blockstun before the next chain-revolver hits.

Another thing, if you have a 1-frame hole, you will lose to Inferno Divider. And remember, with the 5 frame buffer, all 1-frame holes are actually 5-frame holes against a skilled opponent. (who uses the buffering system to their advantage).

[Hellmonkey]

looks like the frame data got put up

http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs/frameData/noel.html

[Ichipoo]

looks like the frame data got put up

http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs/frameData/noel.html

Off to study I suppose...

Huh, 5A is - on block? I thought it was supposedly her best tool for mixups and whatnot.

[Hellmonkey]

it was nerfed in CS

[Ichipoo]

it was nerfed in CS

I thought the only thing that was nerfed about it was the startup being slower.

Anyway on topic, I've been lurking and reading this thread and how d.5A can somewhat "throw off" an opponent's rhythm in a blockstring. Can someone please elaborate on this?

[Konton]

looks like the frame data got put up

http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs/frameData/noel.html

oi

It's like playing Dead or Alive 4 with all this disadvantage on block.

[Hellmonkey]

I thought the only thing that was nerfed about it was the startup being slower.

Anyway on topic, I've been lurking and reading this thread and how d.5A can somewhat "throw off" an opponent's rhythm in a blockstring. Can someone please elaborate on this?

it is still 5 frames startup, it has added recovery

the noel CS guide is completely full of misinformation, don't pay too much attention to that.

[ShinobiBrown]

oi

It's like playing Dead or Alive 4 with all this disadvantage on block.

Reminds me of playing Soul Calibur 4

This is good to know though, now I know why I'm constantly getting jabbed out of pressure strings and shit. There is no real pressure with this bitch anymore, lol. The only normal that's positive on block is 2C, lol. Good shit ArcSys. Good shit

[4r5]

waa waa waa

Come on people. I don't play Noel but I can atleast see from the frame data that any normal that isn't block punishable by a character's A attacks are already bait for 2D or 4D.

[dragontamer]

Anyway on topic, I've been lurking and reading this thread and how d.5A can somewhat "throw off" an opponent's rhythm in a blockstring. Can someone please elaborate on this?

Do this in training mode: set an enemy Noel to 5D -> 5A.

Now, block the 5D, and try to do anything between 5D and 5A. Notice, you are forced to block the 5A if you blocked the 5D. You cannot input a dragon punch, you cannot input a reveral super, you cannot get counter-hit, you cannot pass go. DO not collect $200. The blocking is forced between the two attacks.

Furthermore, 5A is very very fast, if your opponent was timing a reversal after 5D, it simply wouldn't come out. The proper timing of a reversal would be after the 5A, and not after the 5D, but 5A is so quick that I doubt it is within human capacity to time a "complex" reveral for both the end of 5D AND a 5A. And even if it was, my opponent still has to deal with the mixup possibilities.

Of course, my opponents always surprise me with their skill. So maybe after a few months, this will be very weak... but its something I'd like to discuss the possibility of.

[Mizzet]

"Another thing, if you have a 1-frame hole, you will lose to Inferno Divider."

I was under the impression that for a 7f startup move like Ragna's C DP, for example, you need at least 7 frames out of blockstun before you can execute it, i.e you cannot 'hide' any of the startup frames while you were in blockstun. If there was a <7f hole between attacks, while you can activate the move on the first frame possible through buffering it in blockstun, you will get hit out of it before it's actually executed. Am I wrong?

*As you can see from the frame data, all drive moves have 65% same move proration, which is why it's almost never worth it to use the same move twice in a combo. For example after you do something leading into 6d 2d 623d, after you tag the guy with (dash) 66c j.d, you don't want to 6d after that j.d even though that's usually the normal thing to do, you'll want to just go into, for example, d.5c d.6b 236d.

**I see, I wasn't aware his invulnerability covered the startup frames, thanks for clarifying.