[CS1] Noel Chain Revoler Pressure Discussion

[4r5]

Ragna's DP's have invulnerability. He only needs 1 frame to activate the DP then he lets the invulnerability carry him through the startup frames and hit you.

[Aginor]

Do this in training mode: set an enemy Noel to 5D -> 5A.

Now, block the 5D, and try to do anything between 5D and 5A. Notice, you are forced to block the 5A if you blocked the 5D. You cannot input a dragon punch, you cannot input a reveral super, you cannot get counter-hit, you cannot pass go. DO not collect $200. The blocking is forced between the two attacks.

Furthermore, 5A is very very fast, if your opponent was timing a reversal after 5D, it simply wouldn't come out. The proper timing of a reversal would be after the 5A, and not after the 5D, but 5A is so quick that I doubt it is within human capacity to time a "complex" reveral for both the end of 5D AND a 5A. And even if it was, my opponent still has to deal with the mixup possibilities.

Of course, my opponents always surprise me with their skill. So maybe after a few months, this will be very weak... but its something I'd like to discuss the possibility of.

What you say is only true if your opponent regular blocks the 5d. For the case of ib, you'll get DP'd right after the 5d. Why would your opponent deal with mix up possibilities? 5d and d.5a are both mids.

Also, if you can ib d.6c then you can DP in between d.6c and d.6b. That's if you were even able to force your opponent to block a d.6c. The only thing you'll get from doing that is that you won't be in a CH state. Not like it matters anyways because you still got hit!

I guess this will work online but otherwise, meh.....

[Halcyone3]

Woops, d.5A has ~16 frames of blockstun. Its +8 frames on block, but 16 frames of hitstun. Sorry, it shifts the timing by +16 frames...

mah bad, misread

and good to see her frame data is up

[DeadFenrir66]

Do this in training mode: set an enemy Noel to 5D -> 5A.

Now, block the 5D, and try to do anything between 5D and 5A. Notice, you are forced to block the 5A if you blocked the 5D. You cannot input a dragon punch, you cannot input a reveral super, you cannot get counter-hit, you cannot pass go. DO not collect $200. The blocking is forced between the two attacks.

Furthermore, 5A is very very fast, if your opponent was timing a reversal after 5D, it simply wouldn't come out. The proper timing of a reversal would be after the 5A, and not after the 5D, but 5A is so quick that I doubt it is within human capacity to time a "complex" reveral for both the end of 5D AND a 5A. And even if it was, my opponent still has to deal with the mixup possibilities.

Of course, my opponents always surprise me with their skill. So maybe after a few months, this will be very weak... but its something I'd like to discuss the possibility of.

So would it be a good idea to go 5D -> 5A to avoid getting DP'd then go into mix-up?

Also, is there anyway that we can make great use of Noel's new drive command 4D? I really like the idea behind it, but I haven't found a real great use for it. Thoughts?

[Konton]

j.4d has invulnerability on the way down, but it's too slow. Theoretically, you could use it to pass through anti-airs with enough recovery to be hit by the actual attack portion of the move. But if I'm going to jump in and see an aa coming... I'm going to instant block it and j.d anyway.

[Halcyone3]

So would it be a good idea to go 5D -> 5A to avoid getting DP'd then go into mix-up?

Also, is there anyway that we can make great use of Noel's new drive command 4D? I really like the idea behind it, but I haven't found a real great use for it. Thoughts?

j.4D is pretty attrocious, its a weapon of self-destruction, i guess the idea was, like already mentioned, to dodge AAs and get CHs, but its still slow enough that the opponent can recover in time and at the very least, block.

also, if d.5A is a seamless blockstring from middle drive moves too, then u can change the place u use it at in the blockstring, making it harder for them to know when they can DP.

[Konton]

I mean... I guess it will land SOMETIMES because it alters her pattern of descent somewhat. IAD -> j.4d covers a lot of distance and can make them screw up their aa timing or cross up. I never know what to follow up a drive hit with anymore though because 66c timing off of spring raid is bullshit online.

[Mizzet]

If all else fails there's still the most basic version of her drive combos that's been around since day 1 BBCS, still performs decently.

5d/2d 6a 6c 214a 2b 6c j.d 6d 5c 6b 236d. I still bust it out sometimes, if my opponent is so low on life that anything will kill him and I don't want to risk dropping a harder combo.

As for random drive hits, say d.6b for example, just follow up with 6a 6c 214a++, or 6a 6c 5c into SJC j.d and so on.

[WayINside]

If all else fails there's still the most basic version of her drive combos that's been around since day 1 BBCS, still performs decently.

5d/2d 6a 6c 214a 2b 6c j.d 6d 5c 6b 236d. I still bust it out sometimes, if my opponent is so low on life that anything will kill him and I don't want to risk dropping a harder combo.

.

wait, there is better version for combo of 5d/2d?

[Mizzet]

5d/2d 6a 6c 214a 2b 6c j.d 6d 5c 6b 236d [3487/3501]

compare this to the one utilizing grounded j.d, ends in 214a and you can go for 2b 6c reset.

5d 6a 6c 5c SJC j.d 5a 5d 6a 6c 214a [3544]

2d 5d 6a 6c 5c SJC j.d 5a 6a 6c 214a [3666]

2d 5d 6a 6c 5c JC j.d 5b 6a 6c 214a [3826] Ragna/Tager/Hakumen

and the 623d 66c series,

5d 6a 6c 6d 2d 623d 66c 5c 6b 236d [3583]

2d 6a 6c 6d 2d 623d 66c 5d 5c 6b 236d [3740]

623d 66c really gets into everything Noel does, 5d, 2d, j.4d (haha), 6b, 3c, even off 214a/j.bc. Literally every combo of hers has it inside somewhere. The original one still does decent damage though, it's not like it's obsolete or anything, easy to execute and 236d helps with corner push if you want that. Basically you have many options and you choose the one best suited for the situation at hand, won't sidetrack too much, this is the chain revolver pressure thread after all.

[dragontamer]

What you say is only true if your opponent regular blocks the 5d. For the case of ib, you'll get DP'd right after the 5d. Why would your opponent deal with mix up possibilities? 5d and d.5a are both mids.

Simple. Because in CS, there is a simple solution to DP after 5D.

Just let chain revolver finish after 5D. Noel takes a step back after hitting the opponent. Jin's 623C whiffs from this range, Ragna's can whiff if you properly space it. Litchi's can whiff if properly spaced, but even if it hits, she won't be able to combo. I haven't tested Jin's 623D, but the range seems shorter in this game...

(Drive) 6C -> whatever has always been a strange mindgame to me. Against opponents who mash DP, I enjoy striking them with 214D. They tend to be easy to catch because they are glowing white hot during my (Drive) 6C. Now with the special counter-hit state, there may be a decent combo off of rapid. Another important tidbit is that (Drive) 6C can punish players who mash grab now, even if they instant-block.

Anyway, from there, just 3C -> Haida Loop or whatever, except against Litchi, >_<. But now she's staffless, so shes a bit more approachable.

-----------------

So would it be a good idea to go 5D -> 5A to avoid getting DP'd then go into mix-up?

Its not safe, its still punishable, and a strategy as simple as "wait for the (Drive) 5A and then inferno-divider" is a relatively safe way to beat it. (after all, 5D -> 5B etc. etc. are all mids, and its not like they take any primers or anything).

Nonetheless, its a new, subtle trick that Noel has up her sleeve. In fact, I was playing an opponent this weekend who was wondering why Inferno Divider wasn't comming out in my Chain Revolver strings. 5A when your opponent wants to Inferno Divider, and then (Drive) 5B 6A 6C etc. etc. into a nice combo.

I haven't really figured out a strategy yet against ID mashers.

[Aginor]

Simple. Because in CS, there is a simple solution to DP after 5D.

Just let chain revolver finish after 5D. Noel takes a step back after hitting the opponent. Jin's 623C whiffs from this range, Ragna's can whiff if you properly space it. Litchi's can whiff if properly spaced, but even if it hits, she won't be able to combo. I haven't tested Jin's 623D, but the range seems shorter in this game...

(Drive) 6C -> whatever has always been a strange mindgame to me. Against opponents who mash DP, I enjoy striking them with 214D. They tend to be easy to catch because they are glowing white hot during my (Drive) 6C. Now with the special counter-hit state, there may be a decent combo off of rapid. Another important tidbit is that (Drive) 6C can punish players who mash grab now, even if they instant-block.

Anyway, from there, just 3C -> Haida Loop or whatever, except against Litchi, >_<. But now she's staffless, so shes a bit more approachable.

tbh, all ragna has to do against the drive is ib 5d, go into blood kain then he can either DP or go into 5b/5c and you get hit. lol So much for a "simple" solution. So you're saying we should take high risks with no reward. Gotcha!

Oh yea...I didn't tell you that Hazama can add a dash distance to jayoku houtenjin. If you like getting hit by that be more than welcome to use 5d! Bang just daifunka's or ougi's or even guard points and you can't do anything unless you rapid. Waste of meter.

Tager ib 720s.

Litchi doesn't even need to DP if you space your 5d. If you're even up close to do anything then she can 5d.

Hell..even Noel punishes that shit for free. You can only say the only extent to where this stuff works is online or people who can't ib. Like I said, pointless thread.

[Runis]

You can't Blood Kain if you're still in block stun.

You can't 720 in block stun.

You can't Jayoku in blockstun.

You can do it afterwards, but if they're mashing it that hard (and I'm talking offline btw - hearing your opponent mash is key.) all you have to do is rapid after the d.5A and punish them for their mash.

720 will eat a j.D ch into pain.

ID/Jayoku will eat a 3C CH into pain. Heck, chances are you can 4D FC them into death.

This isn't a guaranteed out he's suggesting. He's suggesting a mind game layer you can add to your battle plan.

[Aginor]

Runis, there is such a thing called instant block which reduces your blockstun. Therefore, I recover faster and

I can Blood Kain.

I can 720.

I can Jayoku.

Btw, it is a guaranteed out. Like I said in my last post, this mind game layer only works if your opponent doesn't instant block or it's online and your opponent can't instant block anyways.

[Nas]

if you are missing a drive... then only clear explanation for that situation is to (regardless of what starter you might use)

A. get out as soon as you can with a drive ender (i.e bloom trigger prolly the most safe option and even then it's like if they ib it's quite done)

B. or just don't do anything. just do the recovery of Drive).. although it's not the best option it does allow people to not get a CH out of you or best case scenario let you go (because they expect drives to coming non stop)

and honestly..if i continue drive...it's most likely that im only doing it cuse the player doesn't know how to fight noel.. or they are just that stupid to keep blocking....

[dragontamer]

tbh, all ragna has to do against the drive is ib 5d, go into blood kain then he can either DP or go into 5b/5c and you get hit. lol So much for a "simple" solution. So you're saying we should take high risks with no reward. Gotcha!

Oh yea...I didn't tell you that Hazama can add a dash distance to jayoku houtenjin. If you like getting hit by that be more than welcome to use 5d! Bang just daifunka's or ougi's or even guard points and you can't do anything unless you rapid. Waste of meter.

Tager ib 720s.

Litchi doesn't even need to DP if you space your 5d. If you're even up close to do anything then she can 5d.

I never claimed this to be an invincible strategy. On the contrary, I created this thread to discuss this strategy and refine it. Nevertheless, even if we assume 5D is instant blocked 100% of the time, Noel is not at a complete loss even if she's dedicated herself to 5A. Its all character-specific strategy. Here's a rundown.

1. Taokaka -- This is safe under 50% heat. She only has a reversal super, no free way to get out of frame traps.

2. Carl -- Same problem as Lambda. Super-freeze buffer 214D on Carl's Cantata and you're safe. He can escape pressure with his command dash, but that can be baited.

3. Staffless Litchi -- Literally nothing she can do against close-range frame traps aside from backdash, which can be baited.

4. Hazama -- Requires 50% heat to reversal super. Safe under 50%. Psychic 214D will allow you to do a heatless wall bounce combo, but is obviously risky.

5. Bang -- Daifunka also has a very large startup after the super-freeze. Mash 214D on reaction, you'll be safe. If your opponent is mashing guard points, you probably can punish him. (214A or 6D after your 5D)

6. IB 720 On Tager can be baited with 5D -> 2D. You'll be airborne and then counter-hit Tager. Disadvantage to Noel, but its not as "free" as it looks.

Some characters have no response to this pressure, and some characters only have a response with Heat. If you pay attention to the game, some "obvious" responses can be reacted to 100% of the time.

Against characters with reversals, of course this is going to be less effective. But all frame traps are less effective against characters with 1-frame reversals. Thats nothing new here. On the other hand, we still have a large part of the cast where this sort of pressure can remain safe, because some characters have really crappy reversals.

[Aginor]

Lol well....the better players will IB it at least 80% of the time. Even though you're saying some characters don't have an answer doesn't mean this strategy is even that great in the first place. A good example of this would be tager. Yes 2d goes over 720 but you're only getting like 2-3k off of the 2d since it's in the middle of the drive chain. If tager lands the 720, that's already 5.6k and he has more HP than you. Btw, his answer to that is IB collider or IB 2c.

Lambda: Sees spacing, uses 3c. Sees you're up close, DP

Carl: Sees you're approaching, time to throw fireball with doll!

Staffless Litchi: If you can even get Litchi to be staffless in the first place. lol

Bang: IB 2d.

Btw, you can't react to Jayoku. By the time you do d.5a, hazama is already in Jayoku animation. GOOD LUCK REACTING TO THAT SUPER FLASH! lolol

Even if some characters had no response to this pressure, good players will IB to gain meter to be able to do something about it.

All I see in this thread is using very high risk moves to obtain a low to medium reward. If you want that then go ahead. lol Have fun.

[Atreides]

Then nothing is safe. 5b > 5c, ib 5b 720/dp/jayoku. Ib first hit of 2c, 720/dp/jayoku. IB 6b, 720/dp/jayoku.

5d(blocked) > 2d on 720 is still a good 3.5k+ without meter. If you think they are going to IB 5d jayoku, then rapid and block and punish, or 214d usually stops their command.

[Mizzet]

Actually I've tried to 2d while in drive as a last ditch attempt to avoid 720, and I got grabbed while airbourne, does 720 grab people out of the air if you're near Tager's hand? I was out of options at that point, 4d doesn't put you far back enough to get safe from 720, 214d is a gamble.

Anyway, all this aside, I grabbed Hazama out of Jayoku once, I didn't know that was possible. I inputted the grab first on his wakeup and thought I was a goner when I saw the super flash, but lo I grabbed him out of it.

[Atreides]

Happened to me one time too. I knocked tager down and jumped. He did 720 while I was falling, he grabbed me out of the sky before I touched the ground. Wasn't able to recreate it, so most likely a bug. As for jayoku, I was able to grab and 3c him out of it a couple of times. I wouldn't go fishing for it, but it's nice when it happens once in a while.

[Halcyone3]

Actually I've tried to 2d while in drive as a last ditch attempt to avoid 720, and I got grabbed while airbourne, does 720 grab people out of the air if you're near Tager's hand? I was out of options at that point, 4d doesn't put you far back enough to get safe from 720, 214d is a gamble.

Anyway, all this aside, I grabbed Hazama out of Jayoku once, I didn't know that was possible. I inputted the grab first on his wakeup and thought I was a goner when I saw the super flash, but lo I grabbed him out of it.

i think his 720 just gives more invincibility, i've dodged it by juming, then swing j.B at him and it dosent hit, then i fall and get thrown anyway, has happened sometimes, and sometimes i do hit him. Though i could just be misjudging j.B hitbox.

and jayoku's invinicbility is weird, i've hit him with 6B ike 3 times already mid-jayoku, he still combos me though.

[Mizzet]

Jayoku doesn't have invincibility after the super flash iirc, it's like Tsubaki's 236236c/d, or Noel's bullet rain or Jin's ice wave, only difference is he still wins in a trade because you're launched into the stratosphere.

[DC]

2d has startup frames where you're technically still on the ground. Happened in CT, too.

[dragontamer]

Aginor, I don't think you are reading my posts.

IB 720 On Tager can be baited with 5D -> 2D. You'll be airborne and then counter-hit Tager. Disadvantage to Noel, but its not as "free" as it looks.

Psychic 214D will allow you to do a heatless wall bounce combo, but is obviously risky.

I never claimed that you can react to Jayoku. I never claimed that Chain Revolver spam is good vs Tager. I claimed that its "not totally free", and being psychic will beat Jayoku.

Your post literally added nothing to this conversation except wrong. Lambda 3C to beat Noel's new Drive? Please tell me where I can find the magical 11 frame hole in Noel's new drives, even with Instant-block. My first post already put the "bread and butter" to be 5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B -> 6A, which has no hole larger than 4 frames on normal block (9 frames instant block). Lack of Staffless Litchi? Block 623C, 5C Counter -> 5D -> 6A -> 6C -> blah blah into Staffless Litchi Oki. If she doesn't want to use that 623D, then she's playing as if she's staffless. 5D -> 6D beats Bangs who mash 2D.

I dunno Aginor. I see the star, so you're probably a mod or something. However, the Dustloop "culture" I know is that you shut the fuck up when you don't know what you're talking about so that the adults can talk. My arguments are very specific, and I'm trying to craft my words so that anyone who does understand IB -> reversal (which is literally the oldest strategy in the book) can recognize the weakness quickly.

I know I'm pretty new to CS, but I can tell your argument stinks. I'm asking for the opinion of the veteran Noels of this board to criticize me with VALID arguments. That is afterall, what a discussion should be.

[Mizzet]

As far as 'offensive' pressure is concerned, I haven't really gone and experimented, but I would be looking for a 'relatively' safe way to get to d.6b, 6d, or d.6c, as these are her mixup and guard primer removing options. I'm skeptical if it's even possible as they are understandably slower, seeing as they have higher rewards.

I feel though, while individual drive attacks are much faster and arguably safer, what exactly do you gain by making someone sit through "5D -> 5B -> 6A -> 5B -> 6A"? It hits mid all the way, doesn't hurt their guard stock in CS (unlike CT, it was good for that back then) - you're basically aiming to catch someone trying to poke or grab out, which still happens though, but if you ask me, not often enough to make it a appealing option as opposed to just getting out of drive with defensive options. Especially now that sitting in a drive blockstring doesn't hurt their guard libra, there isn't as much pressure on the opponent to try and escape.

With regards to defensive chain revolver options on block, I'm - at least for now - content in finding the best options possible to get myself safely out of chain revolver should it get blocked. The 4 frame hole blockstring you mentioned is useful because it illustrates one of the uses of d.5b - comes out faster than most chain revolver followups, not horrible on block, etc. Unless you want to play without a D button and rely on 6b/3c/counterhits/crouching hits, you're going to end up in chain revolver mode against a blocking opponent sooner or later, so it's good to know what's the best option for getting out safely. For now, I'll just list several strings that I execute if I want to get out after a blocked drive.

d.5b (stop) -- pushes you away a good distance, can you even be punished for this? I haven't been, yet.

d.5b 236d -- I've had people ib the first hit of 236d and hit me before the second one comes out, but overall it's quite reliable.

d.5b 236a -- can be hit out of 236a if opponent realizes you're going for it, but d.5b still pushes you pretty far away.

4d (stop) --

4d 236a --

On occasion I'll d.5a before d.5b because it comes out a bit faster, and I have been hit out of even the startup d.5b, fast as it may be, on occasion. The key is not to fall into a pattern your opponent can pick up on, if you keep doing 4d 236a for example, obviously your opponent is going to wise up and dash up to knock you out of 236a.

TL;DR: I feel, for the moment, that it's not advisable to actively use chain revolver as a means to pressure offensively. I use it with the intention of it hitting and landing a combo, and if it's blocked, I just look for the safest way out possible. That's not to say it should never be done either, it's all down to the read you've got on your opponent. You can feel it sometimes, if I feel my opponent is too flustered to play optimally at the moment I'll certainly go for that d.6b even on blocked chain revolver.