[CS1] Hakumen vs Makoto

[psycofang2]

Is her air tail attack (j2c I think) plus on block? I wasn't able to find in the makoto forums. And yea makoto's mix up isn't threatening.

yes it it, unless Ibed.

[BladeOfJustice7]

yes it it, unless Ibed.

Thought as much, is there anything else of her's that is plus on block besides her tail and 3c?

[psycofang2]

ill look around for you.

all her +s are her 5A,3C,and 236A fire ball.

5A estimated at around +1

3C was +2

236A (fireball) was +10

comet cannon is +11.

this may take a little the info is scattered.

Edited December 1, 2010 by psycofang2

[Mikeomak]

This match seems like its who ever can get the other person to the corner first and pull of their absurd amount of damage combo first wins it.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Mikeomak

[Warhound]

Fought OmniScythe recently, and I did pretty well but there was one part that stuck out in my mind. This happens to every Makoto I fight. I always have trouble punishing her DP, because she goes too high for 5C to hit, and I think by the time 2C comes out she right above me so it doesn't do anything to her.

What punishes do you guys recommend for her DP? j.2A maybe?

[psycofang2]

er no...5c will hit her, trust me, ive done it a bajillion times. thing is you have to wait until she drops low enough. 2c isnt a bad choice but its not the best 1.

thing is 5C wil hit her late so wait until shes on the other side of you, then use 5c,just as she lands, it will cause a standing CH into an enma combo, or what ever.

on IB you can do the 5C>5C>enma or w/e.

normal block then 4B+C (jump back air grab) into fJ2C>etc.

also if you block her DP you can just right after blocking do 44>hotaru aka backhop hotaru for a FC combo. it works, its not iffy, its legit.

also under a tighter situation if she DPs and she falls towards the corner, you can wait until her sprite is at a height that you wont get infront of her and tK hotaru normally.

her CH status is quite long. there are tons of ways to punish it. just dont rush.

Edited December 13, 2010 by psycofang2

[Warhound]

Urgh, time to run more tests in training mode...

thanks.

[mAc Chaos]

Ryoko or Spark, if either of you have experience with this matchup, could you drop some info here? She's only going to get harder to fight in CS2.

[BladeOfJustice7]

The thread is for CS1 only though, so they don't have access to CS2 anyways. Unless you're asking them about the match up in CS1. In which case you should message them if its that big of a deal to you. I feel like the match up is a less threatening ragna match up.

Things you should watch out for is her 3c since it can go right under a lot of your attacks and might have frame advantage. Not sure though. Also watch out for her tail attack in the air it has a very weird start up that makes it hard to AA and has good frame advantage.

[qwerty]

my advice? don't play cs2 hakumen.

[mAc Chaos]

No Blade I meant CS1. I was saying that we should at least get some good info down for CS1 so we have a good foundation going up against Makoto because she'll be even harder in CS2 (but pretty much the same character).

The information here doesn't help that much. >_> Or rather it's useful but it's still basic. Kind of like "don't get cursed" for Arakune. I feel like you guys haven't fought good Makotos and are underrating her. And there are no videos to refer to...

Maybe I just suck. :P I am pretty much drawing on CT experience.

I'm basically figuring it out as I go along, which is fine since that is pretty much how I learned all my other matchups. I just wonder if Ryoko or Spark or someone who is a beast with Hakumen has some knowledge to point me in the right direction though.

Ugh I probably just am missing a whole bunch of stuff. I have a hard time keeping her out. I can keep her out for most of the match, but that only does so much, then she gets in eventually and makes up for all of it and more.

my advice? don't play cs2 hakumen.

You know I can't do that. :P

Edited December 20, 2010 by mAc Chaos

[Sophisticat]

^ IB her strings, they are unsafe. Haku can be an especially punishing character here if he has stars.

3c, you can 5c CH on startup.

Bait DP for big dmg.

For her falling-in-the-air move, it depends on what height they did it. You dash out from under it, then hit for free CH. Block otherwise. Treat like Tager's elbow drop, essentially.

Makoto isn't as free as I used to think after playing Makotos who know their stuff. It can be a very annoying match if you let her get in your face, but it's most certainly not in Makoto's favor. Best to jump out of her approach attempts and pressure with Haku's superior spacing abilities. As much as possible, keep her from pressuring you. Jump around if you have to, and stay out of the corner because she can get 7k+ there.

That's how I approach the match, but I do hope Spark or Ryoko will chime in because this is still a relatively new matchup, whatever the case.

my advice? don't play cs2 hakumen.

That doesn't sound good. D:

[qwerty]

guys, this isn't meant to be insulting or anything, but give those two a break. i'm sure at least one of you has purchased makoto, so why don't you pick her up as a sub and get to understand how she works? or get a friend to do it for you or something. i mean, most of the regulars here understand hakumen well enough (individual flaws as players aside), so why not expand your knowledge on your own? you have the frame data, some of you have the character i'm sure, so why not put a little time into it and see what you come out with?

if you don't understand something, there's always the makoto forums and the mook. the worst that can happen is you learn a little. :P

[psycofang2]

EDIT: qwerty stop ninjaing me you @#$%&

sophi, jumping out of pressure is looked down upon, just take the BB elitists advice: IB, dont get hit, punish accordingly.

elitists advice : be vague while still sounding "smart"

heres the shit mess of it all. her pressure isn't safe at all, ESPECIALLY vs mr. 1f counters. her normals only block strings can only go in only 1-2 orders. litterally just react and 6D her 6B after 5CC everything else is a low.

though this is just from experience and extensive testing so take it how you will.

her astroid visions:

A is like lambdas zwei a false.

B is a cross up but shes in counter hit staus long enough for you to hit her with 3C, is you see her cross up, then counter attack. dont just 3C its start up.

C is her dimpsy roll. 1 of 3 thing will occur when this happens 2 are wothless from my experience and the other does nothing.

her C (1 hit) ~B goes for a low.

C (1hit)~A is an overhead. its somewhat fast yet slow if you understand that, so 6D can counter it. if you see it enough times you'll understand.

C(1 hit)~D is 2D,6D able. on IB you can grab her out of it, before or after the D.

her tail attack i heard was +5 on block, but im unsure. if you IB it and the attempt to continue pressure with her 5A x N you have enough time to counter with 2D. problem is you cant react to this, you have to guess if they'll continue or not. id advise just IB and block.

her 3C is ass, nuff said.

her 641236D BBS is i believe a 1f reversal DD. this move has stopped so many things at insanely close range its almost pissing me off. if you can bait it, you can 6D it as it comes out. you could even press 6D on start up and it'll still come out.

236236D is a reversal i think. again i dont know makoto. im just testing. if you haven't done anything and the do this at close range you can 6D,2D,5D on start up. grab after its blocked. never jD it. ou wont hit her. shes invincible. you could jD on start up then grab as she recovers but...why would you do that?

her astral is a 1f reversal, completely invincible and freezes everything like lambdas astral heat. meaning dont press anything on start up, just block or IB>3c>into w/e.

watch her block strings her overheads are bad. her strings are bad, etc. more or less IBing can stop her "heavier" attacks. 6B,6C,xD, those kind of things.

but yeah do what the pro above me said and quit being lazy.

Edited December 20, 2010 by psycofang2

[qwerty]

hahah, my "elitist" advice is all true though.

i appreciate that you took initiative before i even said anything; we need more of that around here. i realize a lot of you that were around in ct are used to the bad old days of having a "mod", but spark does a lot for these forums (more than most other character mods do; go look if you don't believe me).

i just find it telling that even though i haven't played the game for a year, i'm still one of the go-to guys for advice. i'm no better of a player than most of you (in fact, most of you could probably beat me in a mirror match at this point); i just read the mook inside and out before dropping this game.

but yeah, the long and short of it is that the best way to learn a matchup you don't play often is to just learn that character yourself. you'd be surprised just how easy it can be if you aren't focusing on combos and moreso on footsies, oki, etc.

[psycofang2]

i didnt call you an elitists but...now i know...>_> can we...can we still be bros?

but yeah i hear ya loud and clear qwert

[mAc Chaos]

I am totally doing that you guys, I am not just coming here and being like TEACH ME!!1 :P I already did that with other characters in CT; it's just that Makoto is brand new so she's a complete mystery to me and it's not like I've learned how to play every single character in the game. I will work on it though.

I was just wondering if someone else who had already gotten there would break it down more in the mean time.

Usually these matchup forums aren't that big a part of our game though; I always end up having to figure things out on my own via experience, and learning on my own, since sometimes when people convey something through text the usefulness of it doesn't really register until I actually start implementing it in game.

Also qwerty just because you're not knee deep in CS doesn't mean you're not worth listening to. Skills carry between game to game; a person who knows what they're doing can identify the key parts and similar foundations of a fighting game and pick it up pretty fast. For that reason I am pretty much that same kind of person when it comes to my own fighting game group. Even if you are not deeply immersed into the game you still have enough general knowledge and experience to give helpful advice.

But yeah, my problem with Makoto is generally keeping her out; even though there are a lot of moves I have that in theory should work, in reality she uses her superior speed and maneuverability to bait them out, take advantage of whiffs, trade in her favor, that kind of thing, until she is in my face pressuring me all day until I get thrown into the corner and raped. I feel like Hakumen has anvils tied to his ankles when I'm fighting Makoto and Noel and other fast characters like that. Just throwing out a move makes me feel super vulnerable. :P

I just have to work on being on point with everything.

But anyway, I'm taking everybody's advice and working on it.

[psycofang2]

read what i posted.

shes like jin almost.

theres almost no way for her to hit you, unless you fuck up or let her hit you. throws, and crossups can work in her favor barely.

you have superior range and arieal manuverability, D to literally stop yourself and to stop AAs. know you distances with your normals. where is it safe and where does it fail? life 4c...fuck that move. love/hate that move. you can do what most cant, stop her block strings through reactions. she can bait you, and she can throw out a move. differences being once that move comes out, she cant stop it from getting countered.

makoto: crossups, overheads, and reversals, and grabs. all can be stopped. except online. then its a legit tactic. :P

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah, when I was playing her today I was thinking, "This reminds me of fighting Jin." The pressure is fierce and every opportunity to poke out you see is actually probably just a trap waiting to be walked into. :P

I'm still working on knowing when it is appropriate to poke out or try and get her off me. All of her moves look ambiguous and the same so it's hard to tell what she's doing. I mean, I can't just block forever. Actually, I have this same problem with Jin too. :P But yeah, I need to start figuring out how her blockstrings work from the other side.

Also my impression of this matchup so far is that you should stay OUT of the air. She has great AA's and air-to-air, and speed. She can space herself on the ground much easier than you can in the air for her approach. Trying to j.C her is just going to get you killed or let her in for free... she can even just parry it and blow you up. 4C is just as risky.

I use 5C as a situational anti-air. It seems to be the most useful way to keep her out of the sky.

3C if she starts running up close. 2A if I think I can hit her out of her startup of a move... and j.D for her j.2C.

Edited December 20, 2010 by mAc Chaos

[psycofang2]

im in the air half the time. why? because flying is fun. and cross up jCs into enma etc is lulzy as all hell.

[mAc Chaos]

She can parry that pretty easily though, since it's a slow move. And all she has to do is just mash anti airs and if it even nips you, even if she gets nailed by your sword, she has enough time to followup with a combo.

Maybe I'm not spacing right though.

I basically treat her like Ragna.

[psycofang2]

in my brain, shes not ragna. you can disrepect her, kinda. her parry wont work mid to max range on jCs cross up.which will most likely be the case. if she parries it you will know. she cant act fast enough to stop you from landing and Ibing it. its actually unsafe to try to continue the space counter.

Edited December 20, 2010 by psycofang2

[qwerty]

what's the input for her parry? assuming it's like jam's (5 for x number of frames, then 46), then you should be able to bait them pretty easily by delaying moves/staggering out your blockstrings.

[psycofang2]

its 46 with immediate independent activation, its almost as fast as hakus stuff so its a reaction type parry. it lasts a bit longer than hakus 1f counter durations. so it'll be hard to actually try to bait a parry. its a reaction move.

[mAc Chaos]

It's more like a 3S parry.