[CS1] Makoto Vs. Carl

[choysauce]

i noticed this wasn't made yet so yeah.

wtf do we do? astral vision C + barrier to get past nirvana?

[Halcyone3]

Getting past nirvana to get to carl is not too hard. Bait him to use Grio or 8D, and go through when the attack is over.

If they turtle too much behind her, scare him a bit with break shots since they go through nirvana. U probably won't actually hit many though.

[Big Red Tie]

carl is literally the slipperiest motherfucker

i personally can't get in range to pressure him hard, and makoto doesn't have any sweet pokes to lock down nirvana

although, predicting bad vivaces is kind of gg for carl

[choysauce]

i do have one major question. i'm tempted to post this questioni in the carl thread cuz its so general lol.

does anyone know when it's safe to jump out or reversal carl's sandwich pressure? or do u have to IB and wait till u get meter for counter assault??

[ZONG_one]

You can IB > Reversal in between 5B >2B, 2B > 6B, and 5B/2B > 5C.

Jumping out is kind of iffy, but you can at certain points.

Also, IB 6D, and you get free punish most of the time, since if you were blocking, vivace A is most likely coming to close the gap. That's free CH for you. Watch out, because if it's not Vivace A, it's probably cross up time soon. (Which you can also IB and punish.)

[choysauce]

vivace is only head invincible right? so i'd just have to stick out a low or a 2a or something like that?

and for the cross up you mean the IAD j2c allecan right?

thanks zong, i really needed this info lol.

and i just read your tagline. you aren't justin bieber who came from teh future????

[ZONG_one]

Vivace A is completely invincible, but only for 8 frames, so it sucks ass anyway. That leaves you 23 frames to CH. (total of 31 frames from start up to recovery.)

Vivace B is only head/mid invincible, for 18 frames, leaving you 21 frames to CH. (total of 39 frames from start up to recovery.) But that would put Carl in an unfavorable position on the other side of you, so don't worry about B.

Also yeah, IAD j.2C.

IB Reversal/5A should be able to punish. Atleast I know it works with Rachel, but Makoto's seems super fast anyway.

Carl's 5A will beat Rachel's if he notices the IB and reacts with 5A, but he's never going to 5A after j.2C allecan.

and I AM JUSTIN BIEBER... or so I hear. >.>

[Eshi]

I've been playing a lot with isuyaru recently and have a couple of observations. For one, Carl's air to air > Makoto. His jA is super good in this match-up and beats all of her aerials unless she's lower. 6A is a very reliable anti-air against him, 2D(LV3) might be really nice too but I need to use it more. I thought that IB > parry would be pretty reliable to get out of pressure but that's not the case at all, Carl's lows and cross-up j2C are too fast/unpredictable and his blockstrings too tight against a good player, IB reversal is better. 3C goes under 6D, it can make for a nice surprise but otherwise you'll just get CH'd. 214AB is a godsend for escaping corner pressure.

Otherwise, Carl having no good reversals or defensive options makes pressuring him cake compared to the rest of the cast. I definitely think this is an even match-up.

[Grec]

I'm a Carl player and I have a friend who plays a lvl 40 Makoto. I think this matchup is generally in Carl's favor because of her short range and how easy it is to get her in between the doll because she's a rush down character. I think it's also really easy for Carl to punish her mixups because she's so predictable. Also he has a tiny hitbox.

[ZONG_one]

Carl has a huge hitbox.

Rushdown characters are not easy to sandwich. Think Ragna and Bang.

[Grec]

Maybe she's just easy to punish for me, Iunno.

But whenever I play with somebody they whine about Carl's hitbox, and I always assumed that me getting out of certain combos was because of that.

[MisterBadguy]

But whenever I play with somebody they whine about Carl's hitbox, and I always assumed that me getting out of certain combos was because of that.

Makoto has huge collision boxes in general, so we don't have to worry about Carl's scrawny ass as much as other characters. We just get fatter combos on fatter characters, so Carl/Noel/More-Different-Makoto just eat BnB stuff, that's all.

[Grec]

Oh, that makes sense.

[Akira-Shiro]

In gereral its 6-4 in carls favor. IB-ing her pressure makes vivace ideal against her. Even if they do try to tele his vivace he could just do B instead & do keep in mind if he knows hes about to be pressured he can volante then start blocking ur pressure & u take a fire ball to the back.... >.> or stop swinging & block.

Either way he gains the upper hand & the diff between her & other rushdown char is there mixup, using vivace on rags is dangerous cause u can still get hit wit the right attack.... & Bang, his pressure is extra air tight. Makoto cant keep carl locked down & she is forced to put herself in dangerous positions for only 2-3K wit DD 4k in a corner wit a DD

Her Dp is also extra punishable, & Bang has projectiles to try & lock carl down Rags has godly rang & speed Makoto aint so lucky to have that luxury of range like rags & bang.

[seyu]

calling it 6-4 is a bit early i think. especially if you didnt have enough matches against her to determine that.

makoto doesnt have a hard time to get out of carls pressure. her 2as are fast enough, the DP has its uses sometimes and parry can be used against everything except that DD where nirvana attacks. also youre underestimating her damage by a long shot.

going from whats possible at max her midscreen damage ranges from about 3k to 5k(6k with DD ender)

i wont doubt that makotos matchup against carls is kinda bad, but it kinda urges me to counter unorganized arguments like those you posted.

p.s. nirvanas ball is so slow that you can parry easily. i had a guy do that to me, stupid off screen fireballs...still even i could counter them

[DJHUOSHEN]

The 4 magic steps to success.

1. Separate Carl from Nirvana (Break Shots anyone)

2. Advance on Carl, usually though Nirvana (AsteroidA B(Pass Through) or AsteroidC anyone)

3. Punch Carl's face in

4. Profit

Parry is mad hot for breaking any Carl/Nirvana sandwitch pressure. Once Break Shots become a conscious problem for the Carl, you can just Magic ball and proceed, as he'll try to CH you with Nirvana. AsteroidC should be the default method of passing by Nirvana, and then when he tries to clap or claw AA you, AsteroidA B works just as well getting by. A smart Carl won't let you work Nirvana's health with Break Shots, and will make a conscious effort to not lose Primers while doing so. A dumb Carl will let Nirvana take the hits, and lose the Primers at the same time. If you can get his Primer to 1, just need to land a Level 3 drive hit for the final bell.

If you're playing a smart Carl, just figure out how they're gonna act to those Break Shots. You can force the play here, use it to your advantage. I'd say a 5-5, only because Carl still has some slick moves he can apply on you away from Nirvana into combos that involve Nirvana, and his air game generally beats Mak's air game, but Mak can still force a lot of the play thanks to Level 3 Break shots taking primers and being a solid nuisance to Carl and Nirvana.

PS - If you want to argue that Nirvana balls cancel L3 Break Shots, I will simply put that Nirvana balls cost Nirvana health, and 0 risk health drain to Nirvana is always a plus.

[Eshi]

Trying to IB > vivace through anyone's pressure carries a very high risk, including makoto. You can't judge Carl's ability to escape her pressure solely on that. He's one of the easier characters for makoto to lock down once she gets in.

Of note, however. If you try to reset Carl in a corner with jDLV3 > 6B > 236A on his wake-up, he can vivace B through it completely and I'm 99% sure you can't stop him.

[The Noble Clap]

Sup, carl player here.

Vs Magic ball.

Old school SF2 Jumping fuck over it.

Drill.

Deactivate.

IAD FCH j.b> sweetness

Vs AV A-b

If they are just playing rock em sock em roboots, that totally works

Other wise, 5b/2b/3c/6a into self setup sammich.

Vs AV C

IDK,6a?

Its still has (weak as hell) head inv. frames

[ZONG_one]

Maybe she's just easy to punish for me, Iunno.

But whenever I play with somebody they whine about Carl's hitbox, and I always assumed that me getting out of certain combos was because of that.

Carl is huge in this game.

That complaint worked in CT, but no one should get away with that in CS.

[Eshi]

Re-evaluating the match-up now that I'm way better with makoto.

For one, Carl's air to air > Makoto. His jA is super good in this match-up and beats all of her aerials unless she's lower.

This is still true. It's difficult to find a way to approach Carl while he's turtle behind nirvana, he can just jA jump-ins on reaction and nirvana keeps you away on the ground. Don't get impatient trying to get close.

6A is a very reliable anti-air against him, 2D(LV3) might be really nice too but I need to use it more.

Still sort of true, but 6A can be baited easily enough and 2D LV3 is too risky. Parry is much more useful since it ends earlier if baited.

I thought that IB > parry would be pretty reliable to get out of pressure but that's not the case at all, Carl's lows and cross-up j2C are too fast/unpredictable and his blockstrings too tight against a good player, IB reversal is better.

IB > Parry is good for when Carl activates 6D too late to be tight. Otherwise don't use it when you're sandwiched. 623C whiffs pretty much whenever he uses a low so be REALLY careful using it. CA whiffs if he uses 3C, as well. Again, learning how to block his mix-up is key to winning this match-up.

3C goes under 6D, it can make for a nice surprise but otherwise you'll just get CH'd. 214AB is a godsend for escaping corner pressure.

3C also goes under fuoco (41236D), it's actually pretty nice. May be a better option than parrying it... strange things have happened like Carl hitting me out while I'm stuck in parry hitstop on fuoco. 214AB and 214C are both AMAZING for escaping the corner and general positioning for this match-up.

Otherwise, Carl having no good reversals or defensive options makes pressuring him cake compared to the rest of the cast. I definitely think this is an even match-up.

I still stand by this completely. Makoto has great mix-up when you understand all of the different options she has, she isn't predictable at all. She can't zone out Carl but unlike other characters who also can't, she has better tools for avoiding sandwich pressure. Overall, this match-up comes down to who gets momentum and blows up the other player first.

miscellaneous combo stuff to remember -

* carl's hitbox sucks. air juggles like 5CC > 2D LV1 > 5CC are significantly more strict

* 6BC > 214ACD LV3 > 2D LV3 can connect, but you have to delay 214A slightly against him

* corner jD LV3 > 6A > 5D LV3, 6A whiffs because of his small reeling animation

* 5B > 6C > 214B > jA > jB is impossible against him, jA always whiffs.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Eshi