Going Back to Guilty Gear

[PimpUigi]

quite frankly, ac's command interpreter is for all intents and purposes, perfect. no need to shit on the mona lisa.

QFT

And I guess BBQ Sauce is right...but I still want less people to drop their combos less.

Other peoples complaining really gets to me.

I was playing Damdai in HD Remix at SummerJam, and he kept complaining every time I did a spinning pile driver to him.

He won more matches, sometimes raping me, I mean wtf?

I thought he was a cool guy too up until I heard him complain to me non stop.

Could have been a mind game to make me play worse? I did win the first 3 out of 5 (in ST before switching to HDR) set of our friendly matches...

That must be it, he knew hearing people complain was my weakness.

[Spirit Juice]

TBH the game offers enough to make sales off of the weaboos who see a cool, flashy, anime game and spend their money only to play it 5 times before shelving it. If it were actually marketed in this country, it would have sold as many copies as all those other stupid, redundant JRPGs that do numbers off lawlanimu.

In 2000, everyone I knew from personal friends, to kids at school, to random acquaintances who owned a dreamcast owned Marvel 2. Hardcore to casual, if you played had a DC you played Marvel. A good deal of people I know bought the DC specifically FOR Marvel.

Do you think even half of them could Sent unfly combos, which are arguably harder than a good deal of the more commonly used FRCs/bnbs in GG? Fuck no.

People seem to forget that, though, fighting games have 2 vastly different demographics between the casual player and the competitive player, you can satisfy both with games that have a more "hardcore" learning curve for competitive players. The casual players, are playing other casual players on a level where not being able to FRC/Unfly/1 frame link/"yada yada difficult to perform fighting game task" doesn't matter because neither can your comp.

Try to recall the days when you played FGs back in the days before you knew a competitive level existed, it's a completely different game. Devs don't need to dumb shit down to interest the bottom skill level players, because they are going to dumb the game down to their level themselves by default.

Using your Sent fly/unfly combos vs other characters is a pretty poor example since a lot of the lesser used characters in MvC2 don't have combos as difficult or near as difficult to Sentinel fly/unfly combos. If everyone in MvC2 had really hard combos like that, the game would not be as fun for the lower level played compared to the higher level player that practiced those hard combos quite a bit.

In regards to GG having enough to market it as some big gay anime game that casuals would eat up, you're not looking at the situation correctly. You're thinking of the US market where casuals would buy GG because it's anime/is cool/whatever. The US market is not the target market for ASW, obviously. When you put a very difficult game in an arcade like GG into an arcade, it's going to be harder to learn and pick up compared to a more accessible game like SFIV.

You're assuming there are just casual players that will mash in the game and play for single player stuff, and then there are competitive players. However, there are different levels of competitive players too. There are players that are content with playing every so often, learning some combos here and there, and being satisfied with that, and then there are players that are hardcore competitive, spend a lot of time playing and in training mode, learning optimal combos, etc. Games like SFIV cater to both levels of competitive players. The more casual ones feel like they can still feel effective when they land their scrub combo and still have fun with that, while the more hardcore competitive players have fun trying to use their characters to the maximum of their ability. In other words, big gay anime fags don't go the arcades and bring in money, so marketing GG as a big gay anime game isn't going to do anything for it other than get more sales from big gay anime fags who buy it on console and that's it.

The current business model is "easy to get into, difficult to master", which is what BB and SFIV are following. As much as you might hate it, there's no denying that the model is working. SFIV is huge, and BB is a success as well. It's working for Capcom and ASW, and it doesn't make sense to go back and produce a game that is harder to play, essentially giving you less money.

It's a fact of fighting games. Fighting games are hard. Not just GG. Bringing down the execution/dexterity level necessary to play won't make it any easier for new players. FRCs are probably among the simpler shit you need to learn to do to be half decent in GG.

While yes, all fighting games are hard, the whole point of of BB and SFIV is to easy to pick up, but hard to master. Making your game easier to play does bring in more potential players. Like I said earlier, there are players that are satisfied with playing at a casual competitive level, which is what BB and SFIV caters to. I'm not sure how hard it is to understand that if you make the game easier to play, you will get more players.

[axel]

My join date predates yours. I'm an east coast player. You have no idea how good I am.

None of his FRC's are needed notice needed isn't the word "useful."

I do acknowledge that they would change the game, because then people would actually get to see them much more often.

My join date predates you, and I think your suggestion sucks.

High join date tier FTW!

[unsanctifier]

except accent core has a pretty lenient command interpreter already?

and quite frankly, ac's command interpreter is for all intents and purposes, perfect. no need to shit on the mona lisa.

Yes that is true, but its just a suggestion to help out both ends really. If people are really THAT hell bent on making GG a bigger community then perhaps something should be done if the new players can't get in because of the learning curve.

Honestly, I don't want ANYTHING done to my Accent Core. We already have blazeblu getting more people into these types of more technical fighters, why should we add more dumbed down games then? It is serious BS.

[smooshman]

Yes that is true, but its just a suggestion to help out both ends really. If people are really THAT hell bent on making GG a bigger community then perhaps something should be done if the new players can't get in because of the learning curve.

for FRC's they could make your character flash on the FRC point, and tutorial mode where they actually tell the tools you have and how they work... I mean I still don't really understand SB, and probably would have never been aware if I hadn't looked it up on DL.

other than that I can't really think of a way to make it more accessable without sacrificing the depth.

[Amadeus46Art]

I'm not going to say anything when it comes to a new Guilty Gear game, since I'm too damn scrub to have a good opinion on that shit, but I do think that ASW needs to realize that GG and BB shouldn't be competing against one another; instead they should be working together to get a larger market share.

Let me compare it to something I actually know about; Blazblue is a Ford Focus and Guilty Gear is a Ford GT. Both are made by the same company, and both are good cars. The Focus is a fun little thing, really great for new drivers, and is still a nice car to drive even for people that really enjoy racing. Along with that, it's cheap, and brings in a lot of money to Ford.

The GT however, takes a lot more skill to drive, as it's a much more powerful car and can be very touchy. It's also much more expensive, and Ford doesn't really make much money on them anyway. However, despite this, for people that really enjoy cars, the Ford GT is amazing, fun as hell to drive, and very rewarding.

To my point, both BlazBlue and Guilty Gear need each other. Guilty Gear can't be made without Blazblue because otherwise it'd have no funds; no one would just buy Guilty Gear because it only appeals to people very interested in it. Without Guilty Gear, Blazblue could probably live on its own just fine yes, but ArcSys would lose a market share to other hardcore fighters as professionals get bored with it and migrate to something else. Even casuals would move away, as they simply want -a- fighting game, not necessarily Blazblue.

Sure, they could dumb down Guilty Gear, make it more accessible to the casual crowd. But everyone I've met that's had even a passing interest in Blazblue, I've introduced them to Guilty Gear, and they loved it. While they still play Blazblue something fierce, they're learning how to play Guilty Gear just as much, and enjoy the game much more.

Like SJ said, Guilty Gear fans, well we're lazy. What we really have to do is start holding BB tournaments for entry level players, find them online, or what have you, and get them to try Guilty Gear. That's the only way we're going to bring this scene back.

[M.Song]

I'm not going to say anything when it comes to a new Guilty Gear game, since I'm too damn scrub to have a good opinion on that shit, but I do think that ASW needs to realize that GG and BB shouldn't be competing against one another; instead they should be working together to get a larger market share.

Let me compare it to something I actually know about; Blazblue is a Ford Focus and Guilty Gear is a Ford GT. Both are made by the same company, and both are good cars. The Focus is a fun little thing, really great for new drivers, and is still a nice car to drive even for people that really enjoy racing. Along with that, it's cheap, and brings in a lot of money to Ford.

The GT however, takes a lot more skill to drive, as it's a much more powerful car and can be very touchy. It's also much more expensive, and Ford doesn't really make much money on them anyway. However, despite this, for people that really enjoy cars, the Ford GT is amazing, fun as hell to drive, and very rewarding.

To my point, both BlazBlue and Guilty Gear need each other. Guilty Gear can't be made without Blazblue because otherwise it'd have no funds; no one would just buy Guilty Gear because it only appeals to people very interested in it. Without Guilty Gear, Blazblue could probably live on its own just fine yes, but ArcSys would lose a market share to other hardcore fighters as professionals get bored with it and migrate to something else. Even casuals would move away, as they simply want -a- fighting game, not necessarily Blazblue.

Sure, they could dumb down Guilty Gear, make it more accessible to the casual crowd. But everyone I've met that's had even a passing interest in Blazblue, I've introduced them to Guilty Gear, and they loved it. While they still play Blazblue something fierce, they're learning how to play Guilty Gear just as much, and enjoy the game much more.

Like SJ said, Guilty Gear fans, well we're lazy. What we really have to do is start holding BB tournaments for entry level players, find them online, or what have you, and get them to try Guilty Gear. That's the only way we're going to bring this scene back.

except you forget that gg has gone well enough long before bb came out

but i do understand what you were trying to say tho

[Sophisticat]

@'BB caters to new player': it doesn't.

I tried getting in a couple guys, didn't work. They liked CT because you could mash stuff, but CS tightened stuff up so now it's no longer fun for them. BB is actually hard to learn, hard to master for new players. It'd be a different game if they really meant it to be open to new players, but as it is, they're going for a "catch new players, make them level up" scheme that, imo, isn't working as well as they think.

Personally, ASW will need to innovate BlazBlue soon or else it'll drastically drop in terms of sales. Game is fun to an extent, but it's lacking focus. As it is, it caters to intermediate-high skill players, and the sales just aren't there.

[Kamui Moon]

Like SJ said, Guilty Gear fans, well we're lazy.

yo buddy. you live in the cbus area and i've never met or heard of you.

step yo (non-lazy) game up. by coming to sb and supporting gg irl

[Amadeus46Art]

Well, like I said, I'm scruby as bubbles. I really have wanted to go to some events, but most are in like Cinci or Cleveland and between school and no job/car I'm pretty much S.O.L. for them. Still I'm keeping an eye open for shit like that. But yeah, I'm another example of "lazy ass GG fan"

[qwerty]

Let me compare it to something I actually know about; Blazblue is a Ford Focus and Guilty Gear is a Ford GT. Both are made by the same company, and both are good cars. The Focus is a fun little thing, really great for new drivers, and is still a nice car to drive even for people that really enjoy racing. Along with that, it's cheap, and brings in a lot of money to Ford.

The GT however, takes a lot more skill to drive, as it's a much more powerful car and can be very touchy. It's also much more expensive, and Ford doesn't really make much money on them anyway. However, despite this, for people that really enjoy cars, the Ford GT is amazing, fun as hell to drive, and very rewarding

the ford gt is also not really made by ford (and neither are the focuses worth their own salt).

but, that's beside the point and for once an analogy on dustloop made sense so good job.

[bbq sauce]

While yes, all fighting games are hard, the whole point of of BB and SFIV is to easy to pick up, but hard to master. Making your game easier to play does bring in more potential players. Like I said earlier, there are players that are satisfied with playing at a casual competitive level, which is what BB and SFIV caters to. I'm not sure how hard it is to understand that if you make the game easier to play, you will get more players.

I get the point, but, my point about fighting games is that they are all easy to pick up, hard to master. Whether they are given the SF4 dumb down effect or not.

Plenty of characters have an easy bnb in GG that the average, less dedicated, 'casual-competitive' player can perform and feel decent. Same as all ngames prior to SF4.

The BB/Sf4 dumb down movement is unnecessary is my main point.

[lunarhostility]

While yes, all fighting games are hard, the whole point of of BB and SFIV is to easy to pick up, but hard to master. Making your game easier to play does bring in more potential players. Like I said earlier, there are players that are satisfied with playing at a casual competitive level, which is what BB and SFIV caters to. I'm not sure how hard it is to understand that if you make the game easier to play, you will get more players.

This section right here should be the final word on this debate.

[bbq sauce]

Making a good series shitty for the sake of money, essentially?

ASW has BB, they made a whole new series to go the watered down path with. Why take an already established series, and strip it of what the fanbase who made it what it is, know and love?

[Spirit Juice]

I get the point, but, my point about fighting games is that they are all easy to pick up, hard to master. Whether they are given the SF4 dumb down effect or not.

Plenty of characters have an easy bnb in GG that the average, less dedicated, 'casual-competitive' player can perform and feel decent. Same as all ngames prior to SF4.

The BB/Sf4 dumb down movement is unnecessary is my main point.

I wouldn't say all FGs are easy to pick up. I mean, when you think about it, the amount of effort required to be considered decent in GG is huge compared to BB or even SFIV. Realistically, it's not like you can pick up Sol, learn how to do 5K 5S© 2D VV or BR and be considered decent. You're going to have to learn a lot more than that, such as learning his FRCs, command grab combos, and some form of SW loop (even if they are poverty and not optimal combos). Now if you compare to say, BB and Ragna, you can probably pick up a basic BE combo in a few minutes so long as you can JC stuff and know the gatlings. If you want to compare directly, learning how to do a single BE combo with Ragna requires you to know how to: do gatlings, jump cancel, do a special motion. To do even a basic SW combo with Sol, you need to: launch them in a specific way (command grab, GV clean hit, RC a move that launches, 6P in the corner, GF FRC off of certain set ups), hit gattlings, jump cancel, and be aware of screen positioning (if you're doing more than one SW), character hit boxes, and sometimes character weight. If you want to go into SFIV, a basic combo with Ken would be c.LPx2 linked into fierce DP. That's even simpler than BB. Granted it is SFIV, but something like that is considered very staple for Ken and really anyone can do it.

I mean, there are things in GG that can be simplified and still make the game play and feel like GG; FRCs are probably the easiest ones to deal with as an example.

Making a good series shitty for the sake of money, essentially?

ASW has BB, they made a whole new series to go the watered down path with. Why take an already established series, and strip it of what the fanbase who made it what it is, know and love?

It's obvious though that catering to the hardcore crowd does not profit them as a company. What would they have to gain from making another GG that is "hardcore" like AC? Make their hardcore fans happy? That's all fine and dandy, but that would, more than likely, not make them much money, if any money at all. If you're trying to pitch a product to a company, would you really say "Hey I have this great product that some people like! They really like it a lot and would love it if the product makes it into the mass market! The only problem is that if you guys invest in my product, you'll lose money... but at least you'll make those people happy!"?

The whole "Well they have BB and are making money off of it, so that means they should obviously just sink money into a new GG game and lose money to just please the hardcore crowd" kind of logic doesn't make any sense.

[qwerty]

i pointed this out in another thread, but many people here seem to be under the impression that arcsys gets a monthly check from arcades or something because accent core is still a popular game.

but the fact of the matter is, arcsys has already made all the money they're going to from ac. they only get money from the initial sales of the game, and gd-rom's have been out of production for almost four years now. all the console ports have made their small fortune too, so anything they see from ac at this point is perhaps sponsorship from enterbrain for every year it's at sbo, but i'm not sure if that's even the case.

and now it makes sense as to why they churn out a new bb every year, even if it's just a small update like cs2, lol.

[smooshman]

I mean, there are things in GG that can be simplified and still make the game play and feel like GG; FRCs are probably the easiest ones to deal with as an example.

I would say controlling fs and cs would be easier.... because a lot of new players might be thrown off by pushing a button and having it do 2 different attacks, I mean they don't even use the 6. but that's more of a reliability thing for new players rather than an actual difficulty decrease.

also the way otg's work (or more accurately don't) is kind of wierd to get used to, it can be hard to determine when the enemy is technically considered "down".

but those aren't really "difficult" just take getting used to.

realistically though FRC's are a little hard to change, it might make certain links tougher, or might open up links that weren't previously possible. Maybe if they changed the effects of an FRC, like buffers, or something, if might be easier, becuase 6frc6 and FRCIAD are rather annoying....

[GigaDrive]

Oh god, the time i spent playing GG as a kid with my friends... Miss those days...

I started to play GGAC+ recently to get my hype to maxium.

On a related, and obvious note, Anyone else feel that BB's music is a HUGE dissipointment compared to GG's standard's?

[soujiro seta]

The only way another GG would happen would be for arc to dumb it down to BB level. SJ is right, no company is going to appeal to the hardcore anymore. This is the first thing hardcore vets need to understand. I tried to like SF4, but I couldn't, and I hated what capcom did to it, but I fully understand why they did what they did. CEOs and share holders only care about $$$$, if while presenting the game to them Ono was like "I would like to make the next itteration more advanced than 3S", he would have been taken off the project immediately,and someone who would dumb it down would have been put in charge.

An upgraded GG will lose arc money. No company in current times is going to make such a foolish mistake. Companies like to upgrade their games for their hardcore fans, but if the market calls for a dumbed down version then they will appeal to the market first and foremost. Casuals = 100000000X more $$$$$$ than hardcore. That's why BB was created, it's more friendly to consumers.

I also agree with Sophisticat. As easy as BB is to us, it's actually not as casual friendly as we'd like to think. In the gaming center on my college campus, someone out of the blue (the first time) decided to bring BBCT to play with people. Only a few of knew how to play. Lol, most of the people watching didn't even know what Blazblue was, lol, but you can bet they knew about SF4. They tried playing, and they would constantly say "What the heck is going on?", "wow this stuff is pretty hard". Don't forget most of them are not used to air dashing, air blocking, barrier blocking, etc. Some were interested, but most of the people there were like "this is too hard/fast for me". I was like "It seems that way at first but you'll eventually get used to it with practice", but they still insisted that it was too much for them.

Really? BB hard? Lol, then what would they say about GG? So you see, assuming there is a next GG, and if they want it to SELL, keyword, then they really have to dumb it down, and probably make the characters muscles a bit bigger, probably take away air dashing, might even have to include a "rage" bar separately from the meter bar which fills up when you get hit...............hahahahaha you get where I'm going with this .

Joking aside, yeah they'll have to make it easier to enter and play.

[GigaDrive]

I think it wold actually sell if GG was, you know, GG. Not some watered down down game for casuals to pick up, D spam with Noel, Ice Car with Jin, or just do D hits with Ragna. This "balancing" is what drove me away from BB at first, i still hate it, and hoped they would fix it by BBCS... But i was wrong, instead they added "Beginer" mode, that auto combo's for you when it was so easy to do in the first place.

Im just saying, now en days, games just hold your hand, kiss your boo-boo's and shove you in the right direction. Toughness makes the game by FAR more enjoyable, Hell, Any game. Take demon's souls for example, they sold it as "Hard"... I say "Hard" because the game was slightly difficult, i still beat the tut. boss on my first go anyway. And that game sold ton's of PS3's. Just look at /V/ for 5 minutes.

All im saying is, if they were smart, they would give the fans what they want, and what they need, a difficult fighting game.

Bring us back our Guilty Gear.

[Spirit Juice]

I don't think you're grasping the concept that GG would probably not make them much money, if turn a profit at all, if they made the game entirely with fans in mind.

[soujiro seta]

^^^ @ Gigadrive: If they are smart, as a company, they would want to make money. People need to understand this. The hardcore market is not as big a hardcore fans like to believe. It's actually a very small portion of the gaming community. This is why the Wii is so successful. It appeals to soccer moms and grandmas. Why do you think stuff like mario galaxy sell 10 mil in like the first week? the game is so easy and simply to pick up and play. hardcore players could breeze through it with their eyes closed, just like I did. Nintendo doesn't give a damn that many hardcore fans didn't like the direction they took with the wii, they're using $100 bills to wipe their @$$. They couldn't give a damn about the hardcore. Same with capcom and SF4. As sad as it may be for vets, MONEY comes first.

I'm disappointed as well, but it's the reality of things, and if I owned a business money would come first too.

[Sesshyru]

Hot in here.

Same thing is happening to the RTS community. So don't feel lie it's only FG's.

[VR-Raiden]

I also agree with Sophisticat. As easy as BB is to us, it's actually not as casual friendly as we'd like to think. In the gaming center on my college campus, someone out of the blue (the first time) decided to bring BBCT to play with people. Only a few of knew how to play. Lol, most of the people watching didn't even know what Blazblue was, lol, but you can bet they knew about SF4. They tried playing, and they would constantly say "What the heck is going on?", "wow this stuff is pretty hard". Don't forget most of them are not used to air dashing, air blocking, barrier blocking, etc. Some were interested, but most of the people there were like "this is too hard/fast for me". I was like "It seems that way at first but you'll eventually get used to it with practice", but they still insisted that it was too much for them.

Something similar has happened in my area. A lot of people do seem to think it's not an easy game.

I try convincing them it's not nearly as complicated as it looks, but alas.

[GigaDrive]

Appearently i dont understand yet, i was still in the daze of happiness of there being a new GG coming to the ps3 and xbox360...I read it in a thread here somewhere...

I need to get off the fact they arent making the game for us, there making it for the largest source of there customer's...

Let me sink into despair... ):