[CS1-CSE] Road to Ikaruga - The Bang Social thread - Do you even 3c?

[DaiAndOh]

Neither of those games are fighters though. One's a vs. platformer, the other a puzzle game.

And 64, Melee, and Puzzle Fighter are great games :D

[StayFree( ' 3')]

Neither of those games are fighters though. One's a vs. platformer, the other a puzzle game.

( -_.-) ...exactly sherlock.

[General Heinz]

Neither of those games are fighters though. One's a vs. platformer, the other a puzzle game.

And 64, Melee, and Puzzle Fighter are great games :D

Melee's considered a platformer?

[DaiAndOh]

( -_.-) ...exactly sherlock.

Puzzle fighter kinda clued me but....

Melee's considered a platformer?

I consider the smash series platformers. In a fighting game, hit someone enough, they will die. I could hit you an infinite number of times in Melee and you could technically live.

It also controls way more like a platformer than a fighter. Movement, physics, jumping...

[Lucalibur]

I consider the smash series platformers. In a fighting game, hit someone enough, they will die. I could hit you an infinite number of times in Melee and you could technically live.

It also controls way more like a platformer than a fighter. Movement, physics, jumping...

Yeah, the smash series is more of a platformer with fighting game elements than anything. Still fun though.

[DaiAndOh]

You guys are awesome.

Dacidbro if you're there, you forgot to mention in your cross assault vid about the EC blowing you up. Though I did actually laugh at Team Catherine.

[General Heinz]

I mean, I guess you can compare it to a platformer just based on the fact that there are platforms (inb4 FD), and the movements are different given the fact that you can dash away from your enemy...but to be honest, all of the characters have diverse movesets (you could argue "clones!" but besides Roy, who basically sucks balls except for when Vectorman plays him, the other clones have very different playstyles from the "original" character) and there are enough advanced techniques (many character-specific) in the game there's a very high ceiling for skill.

Plus there are other "fighters" that have ring-out-based systems that are perfectly analogous to smash's edge game--except for the fact that Melee's edge game is arguably the single largest contributor to its competitive depth.

Just being a smasher here--call it what you want, but I think the core elements of fighting games are certainly there ("Survival!").

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think it's a "party game" too, so in getting that stigmatism it's not really wrong, I just don't see the real parallel to platforming. Simpler inputs means more accessibility, but it also means that other things are emphasized, namely timing (even down to one frame, as with any other fighter) and mindgames.

Tres-player smash though...yeah, fuck that >.<

Edited February 3, 2012 by General Heinz

[DaiAndOh]

I mean, I guess you can compare it to a platformer just based on the fact that there are platforms (inb4 FD), and the movements are different given the fact that you can dash away from your enemy...but to be honest, all of the characters have diverse movesets (you could argue "clones!" but besides Roy, who basically sucks balls except for when Vectorman plays him, the other clones have very different playstyles from the "original" character) and there are enough advanced techniques (many character-specific) in the game there's a very high ceiling for skill.

Plus there are other "fighters" that have ring-out-based systems that are perfectly analogous to smash's edge game--except for the fact that Melee's edge game is arguably the single largest contributor to its competitive depth.

Just being a smasher here--call it what you want, but I think the core elements of fighting games are certainly there ("Survival!").

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think it's a "party game" too, so in getting that stigmatism it's not really wrong, I just don't see the real parallel to platforming. Simpler inputs means more accessibility, but it also means that other things are emphasized, namely timing (even down to one frame, as with any other fighter) and mindgames.

Tres-player smash though...yeah, fuck that >.<

FD has a platform. The actual level. You need to stay on it to win.

Diverse movesets do not make a fighter. Nor does skill curve or ceiling. Ever see SF1?

Just being a former smash player who's played against top smash players in all 3 games.

[McArthur]

bang is soooo derp now lol

did a 3cfc>2b>5d and did some random shit inbetween that resulted in a mid combo jd into pickup into knockdown ender for like 3.7k

he can do that since CS2. Bang got buffs got nerfs, but he's not derp now, alot was also taken away from him, he does the same combos and damage from CS2, people just didnt bother to actually learn him on CS2

[Linear04]

nope, cant relaunch by j4c>jd into pickup again in cs2

love that j4c buff

[McArthur]

yeah but you also can't do alot of things in CSX, basically 90% of what you see in CSX is possible in CS2, im talking actual in-match combos. j.4C corner Bumper loop is gone too, that thing was mad legit btw.

[Linear04]

dunno about you but mid screen fc combo that does 3.7 is hella legit in real match

what kind of stuff that is possible in cs2 is not possible in csx in a real match scenario anyways?

besides that one bumper loop that was in corner + command grab + rc + nail, i dont recall any negatives that csx bang has compared to cs2 bang, especially now that he has a follow up to ground grab

[McArthur]

corner grab is at least 1.2 to 1.5k stronger in CS2 compared to CSX, not to mention gets u 2 Seals without nails.

midscreen FC 3.7k is legit, but it was possible way back in CS2.

Posion nails enders can't reset as much in CSX compared to CS2.

Command Grab, RC 5C 6D Daifunka is 1.5-2k Weaker in CSX compared to CS2.

Air Grab pushes the opponent farther away in CSX compared to CS2, making follow ups situational compared to CS2 being always.

i do give props to 5B being better, but for me Bang isnt buffed as much as people think, cos 90% of what CSX Bang does existed in CS2

[Linear04]

>midscreen FC 3.7k is legit, but it was possible way back in CS2.

what combo would that be?

>corner grab is at least 1.2 to 1.5k stronger in CS2 compared to CSX, not to mention gets u 2 Seals without nails.

fair tradeoff imo, having good midscreen options helps out more in the long run imo

>Command Grab, RC 5C 6D Daifunka is 1.5-2k Weaker in CSX compared to CS2.

eh, meter burning combo, i dont mind losing that

>Air Grab pushes the opponent farther away in CSX compared to CS2, making follow ups situational compared to CS2 being always.

is that character specific? ive been able to easily follow up on people that i play with locally on extend

hm i can see why you think bang lost alot tho.

[McArthur]

oki before continuing my posts XD cos im sure most dont know me, i barely post on dustloop cept when i post vids. so just to be clear, the talk's all good XD it's for the sake of "the more you know" kind of thing to those who'll pass by. so continuing

1. fatal 3c-> 2b->6c ->j.4C ->PalmPush -> (optional) choose between 5B Palm Push or 6C j.D (optional) ->6c, j.4C, j.C. doing optional makes it near to 4k (very easy to do, still works now of course)

2. yup it is an added option CSX now. but in CS2 it was better (Corner) fairly neutral

3. by the time any character gets 100 meter i am 100% sure your enemy is damaged enough to be killed or close to death in that combo in CS2, compared to right now in CSX, you're right it's a waste of meter hence it's out of my personal bag unless of course it's the "kill combo"

4. Nope, it's where you air grab your enemy specific. it still works of course, but back in CS2, it's guaranteed whether u grab them on top of the screen or not

and oh 5D was better in CS2, for me, in terms of a guard point usage, the damage just doesnt compare.

But of course cos of the counter assault changes in CSX, Bang is happier compared to other characters in that area

[zeth07]

Posion nails enders can't reset as much in CSX compared to CS2.

Just a thought about this,

IMO the poison nails got buffed due to the knockdown they cause in certain situations. At neutral if you land one while they are in the air it gives you more time to move in. In the corner, ending certain combos with it and getting the knockdown puts people into a relatively good oki situation where you will either get a quick mix-up if they tech or if they don't tech you can get extra damage and stay in the same situation.

But I do agree, I don't really see how Bang is "derp" compared to a lot of other characters in the past, it actually seems kinda uninformed to even say that or just plain stupid. A lot of Bang's combos serve very specific purposes, where you're usually sacrificing damage or seals or oki to gain something in return.

[YukiBlue]

CS2 Bang wasn't terrible, and as for "He could do all this in CS2" Talk, I don't mind. He can do a bit more, and it prorates a lot better, Coupled with solid carry and midscreen damage, a vast selection of options and truly braindead 4 Seal combos and im happy.

[General Heinz]

FD has a platform. The actual level. You need to stay on it to win.

Diverse movesets do not make a fighter. Nor does skill curve or ceiling. Ever see SF1?

Just being a former smash player who's played against top smash players in all 3 games.

Yes FD is a giant platform, I get it. What I'm getting at is that the edge game is, in effect, a "ring out" condition that is already present in other fighting games (i.e. Virtua Fighter). Not to mention the fact that platforming games have distinctly different goals set up for the player and often aren't directly competitive (i.e. you win by beating a single other player-character), so this differs from fighting games and smash as well.

This isn't an attempt at a flame war over genre definitions because ultimately it doesn't matter of course neither of us cares the other's opinion--I will of course continue to consider smash a fighting game, because it is, and you will continue to consider smash NOT a fighting game, which in your world it is not--but I'm trying to figure out your line or reasoning here.

So define fighter. In my opinion you must just be being very restrictive about your definition.

BB contains plenty of innovations that aren't in "classic" (meaning old) fighting games, but we still call it a fighter. Oh what grounds does an innovation make such a game not a fighter? When there's no health bar to determine winner? Why pigeonhole yourself into such an arbitrarily narrow concept of the genre?

Just curious.

Edited February 3, 2012 by General Heinz

[DaiAndOh]

So define fighter. In my opinion you must just be being very restrictive about your definition.

BB contains plenty of innovations that aren't in "classic" (meaning old) fighting games, but we still call it a fighter. Oh what grounds does an innovation make such a game not a fighter?

For starters, you have to have health and die when you get hit enough.

So yes, most FPS are closer to the genre than Smash.

[General Heinz]

That's what I figured your distinction was. Dunno, that just seems arbitrary to me. I mean yes, it could be said that you can "hit your opponent an infinite number of times and they won't die" due to percentages instead of health bars, but firstly the absence of this isn't enough to put it into the platforming genre (only positive evidence of platforming is, not negative evidence of something else from a completely divergent genre), and secondly that's a huge oversimplification which you're probably aware of if you've played so much smash.

That is, unless it's your idea of a winning strategy to continually spam low- to no-knockback moves on your opponent until they hit 999% because it's...fun that way? But otherwise, even mathematically speaking, it becomes impossible not to kill your opponent if they have high enough percentage because a) it becomes impossible to DI in such a way to reach the edge, even if you don't die off the blastline, and b) presumably you're actually trying not to let them get back, so such strategies as edgeguarding and edgehogging apply.

Honestly I picked up BB to see if it would help me with my smash game, just based on the idea that there are similar themes in both games from the perspective of someone trying to win--proper spacing, judicious selection of moves to cover safe options, and committing to reliable punishes without overcommitting oneself and revealing a weakness as a result. I guess my point is that the goals and philosophy of the games are the same even if they differ in their means.

Edited February 3, 2012 by General Heinz

[Dacidbro]

movie intentions

make a lost people unite

but what have I done

~Haiku

[General Heinz]

movie intentions

make a lost people unite

but what have I done

~Haiku

Beautiful.

Who did you main in smash Dacid?

And if you had to just make a conjecture, what's the most fundamental aspect of Bang's metagame that should be mastered first by a beginning Bang main?

[Dacidbro]

Beautiful.

Who did you main in smash Dacid?

And if you had to just make a conjecture, what's the most fundamental aspect of Bang's metagame that should be mastered first by a beginning Bang main?

Falcon :]

Controlling and dominating the neutral game is most important. Learn how bumpers and nails lets you stuff any action you can call out ahead of time and gain an advantage. His offense is strong, learn how to stagger it to optimize it against complacent opponents and how to frame trap jumpy or mashy opponents. Those two things are most important, along with developing an intelligent defensive game, since his defensive choices are not the strongest.

[Star-Demon]

Pro tip: Play metaknight. :P

And really? Bang is Derp? Like, Noel DERP? Or AE Yun Derp? Drunken Jackie Derp?

[YukiBlue]

Noel DERP? Or AE Yun Derp?

It'll be many a moon until derp like that surfaces on these lands once more