TyrantRevolver Posted March 7, 2011 Posted March 7, 2011 Sounds more like a "Now that more people can push the buttons correctly and I can't outplay them otherwise" situation. Fighting games are about a whole lot more than execution and if execution was the only thing keeping the top players winning then maybe they don't deserve to be top. Lol, wtf is a "random launcher?" None of this is random, you gotta press the button. I like how you think. Couldn't agree more. I do like the reward of growing adept at things that are difficult to execute but I don't think a game should be defined by it.
Retsu20 Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 No, MvC is definitely pretty ridiculous with the X-Factor system. MvC2 is more competitive.
qwerty Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Fighting games are about a whole lot more than execution and if execution was the only thing keeping the top players winning then maybe they don't deserve to be top. just so you know, that was never the case in marvel 2.
tastylumpia Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) EDIT: Just picture this. Would GG be any good if they gave every character an ABC chain combo into super that took over half life (and did 100% in a special "rage" mode). Would this stifle combo creativity in actual gameplay? Would players be motivated to even learn more advanced setups or combos that barely did more damage? Would you play this game? Edited March 8, 2011 by tastylumpia
qwerty Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 his argument seems pretty sound to me. though, i don't think that alone is enough to dismiss marvel 3, nor do i think it's the game's biggest problem, or even one of them.
Ky-Sama Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) mashing 6P isn't particularly hard. :P shadow gallery loops are a bit rough, but doable. still, you've done a rather poor job of supporting your argument; and this is coming from someone who is, on the whole, inclined to agree that marvel has a higher execution barrier than gg. to go off of what furix was saying, how do you explain justin (who doesn't have the best execution, as far as marvel players go) winning tournaments over say clock or yipes? I'm going to make this short. Using 6P is one of the basics of GG, so of course it's not hard to use. SG loops aren't too bad, but Ogawa combo's are . I didn't say execution is just what makes Marvel 2 a harder game... Here are a few things off the top of my head: i.e. in order to play it at high-level, you need to have extremely good blocking skills, GDLK reaction, watch everything on the screen (and I mean absolutely everything), you constantly have to press 4-5 buttons at once (+ directions), plus alot of other stuff I can't think of atm... Oh yeah, speaking of Guilty Gear, I have very high expectations, so I'm only talking about the best of the best @ GG; the Japanese/Tougeki... Oh, and about Justin, he just flat-out OUTPLAYS both Yipes & Clockw0rk.. It's pretty obvious that he has a much better strategy than them... However, in skill, Sanford was pretty close to Justin's level (plus he used to play with him all the time), but he lacked hit-confirming, among other things... On topic: I can't believe this is the age of "dumbing down" games... What Capcom did with MvC3, and what Pachi said they will do to the new Guilty Gear makes me really sad ... I don't like arguing -- ♥as I love both MvC2 & GG equally♥, so everyone have a nice day ^_^. Edited March 8, 2011 by Ky-Sama
qwerty Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 in order to play it at high-level, you need to have extremely good blocking skills, GDLK reaction, watch everything on the screen (and I mean absolutely everything), you constantly have to press 4-5 buttons at once (+ directions), plus alot of other stuff I can't think of atm... and you don't have to watch everything on screen in gg? plus, spacing and footsies in guilty gear is harder than it is in marvel, if you ask me. not to mention that while gg mixups may not hit you at lightspeed like they do in marvel, you're given more options to escape, which if nothing else, makes the game more interesting. anyways, the rest of what you're saying is spot on, so let's just leave it at that.
Yggjrasil Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 I can't believe this is the age of "dumbing down" games... What Capcom did with MvC3, and what Pachi said they will do to the new Guilty Gear makes me really sad ... This is exactly what I'm afraid of in new fighting generation nowadays. Ever since they put that right-stick easy input shit in CvS2:EO, it's gone downhill from there. Not hating on people who play like that because they never really played a fighting game before. That's ok and maybe they don't have an offline tutor but I'm sure they can go online to youtube and/or google and find something to help them learn how to play a fighting game. but a majority of the new generation players are a bunch of simple-minded children/teenagers who use very dull and iterative processes (running away,spamming assists and mashing buttons haphazardly then raging when said process fails) to win instead of taking time to learn a game and have some fun with it. Fuck all this "Pick-up and play like a pro in no time!" mentality that almost EVERY fighting game company has developed. With that said /endrant.
Nini Heart Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Just cause they reduced the execution barrier in recent FGs doesn't mean it's not there. Pick up and play like a pro in no time is nothing but a myth. People say SSF4 is scrub friendly, but the reality is that to be good at the game, you have to learn some fucken hard links, have some fucken good footsies and hella good fundamentals.
Mr. Camaro Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 easy to learn, hard to master is an incredibly hard thing to achieve in a game, and the former makes more money so heres mvc3 everyone
Yggjrasil Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 and in the end thats all that matters. The money, not the fun factor or the stratification from learning a difficult game. I'd say "What a bunch of sell-outs" but I guess the economy would encourage such means for money.
tastylumpia Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) Just cause they reduced the execution barrier in recent FGs doesn't mean it's not there. Pick up and play like a pro in no time is nothing but a myth. People say SSF4 is scrub friendly, but the reality is that to be good at the game, you have to learn some fucken hard links, have some fucken good footsies and hella good fundamentals. Yet all those fundamentals and advanced setups can be (and often are) nullified with a random guess ultra. My main complaint on MvC3 isn't simply that the execution barrier is lowered. It's that "braindead easy beginner combos lead to ridiculous damage off single pokes", in a series where stray hits happen very often. Like it or not, execution IS an important factor in gameplay mechanics and balance. Heavy damage combos SHOULD take a lot of setup and precision, not four buttons and a qcf. Why has it become the standard to institute a universal comeback mechanic that allows you to get bodied for the majority of the match and still win from a hail mary? Can't scrubs just take their beatings without having something to fall back on? Justin Wong was amazing with all his clutch comebacks. Now a reverse OCV is almost expected with the duration and damage from a level 3 X-factor. Edited March 8, 2011 by tastylumpia
Nini Heart Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Random guess ultra? What do you mean random? Random as in reversal? Tell me when a top player ever got knocked out of a tournament because a scrub randomed ultraed them. And no shit, X factor level 3 is stupid as fuck. I never defended that. I'm just saying it's not piss easy to learn and scrubs aren't gonna beat seasoned players who know what the fuck they're doing.
tastylumpia Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 I mean random as in a non-comboed guess, maybe from wakeup. I've seen Evo top placers eat random ultras to the face. Whether or not that led to them losing in a tournament I don't know, but the whole idea behind a overly powerful comeback mechanic (which is what I'm lumping in X-factor with) is stupid IMO. And it IS extremely easy to learn to utilize. Your first two characters die. You activate and suddenly you have an insane damage boost. Any hit you land is super buffed and a single combo will OHKO. The skill gap between a scrub and a skilled player hasn't changed, it's just the risk from getting hit once is greatly skewed in the scrub's favor. People can say "it's fair because both players have access to it", but just because both players can do it, doesn't change the fact that it's a stupid mechanic.
Xtra_Zero Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) Like it or not, execution IS an important factor in gameplay mechanics and balance. Heavy damage combos SHOULD take a lot of setup and precision, not four buttons and a qcf. This. It's a pretty unpopular view, but it makes sense. In the end, if you have to have something better than something else, it's better to make the good stuff hard and the weaker stuff easier. If you have it the other way around or even level (where the easy stuff and the hard stuff are just as good) then there's no reason to do the hard stuff and it makes the game weaker. I believe this carries over into the "good characters should be hard" category. The skill gap between a scrub and a skilled player hasn't changed, it's just the risk from getting hit once is greatly skewed in the scrub's favor. People can say "it's fair because both players have access to it", but just because both players can do it, doesn't change the fact that it's a stupid mechanic. Though I must disagree with you here. Your argument is based around the implication that it gives one player an unfair advantage, not how it's a stupid mechanic. From what it seems, XFactor exists to offset the slippery slope that occurs after losing your assists. Edited March 8, 2011 by Xtra_Zero
Nini Heart Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Well an Ultra is like a reversal. So I can't really call it random ultras cause that's disrespectful to players who actually legitly think about how to use their ultras as a reversal. It's high risk high reward. And it works occasionally. I really don't see how you can compare it to X-Factor level 3 which is just stupid, has basically no penalties for activating and allows you to land a full health combo off a jab with just ABCD>j.ABCD>Super or OTG>Super Still, there are ways around X-factor 3, like setting up an unblockable as the character is getting in and using your own x-factor to kill him before it activates. Once again, i'm not denying that X-factor is stupid and would gladly like it removed. I'm just saying scrubs are not suddenly gonna dominate because they have X-factor. Top players have X-factor too and they're gonna abuse it better than scrubs.
SolxBaiken Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Ummm..... Here's the official trailers for Jill and Shuma! Jill kinda does shit damage IMO, she HAS to keep comboing, but Uroborous Install makes for some crazy shenanigans x .x Shuma....WASTE OF FLESH!!!
SolarMisae Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Damn, Uroboros install is kinda awesome. Although honestly she still doesn't look much different from the gameplay vids of the hacked version, which didn't impress me much.
SoWL Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 So, Jill basically gets a FRKZ? Cool. But her damage is so low that I can't help but wait for her other shenanigans to be revealed. And Shuma is still in the (literal) God tier.
Mr. Camaro Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Your argument is based around the implication that it gives one player an unfair advantage, not how it's a stupid mechanic. From what it seems, XFactor exists to offset the slippery slope that occurs after losing your assists. it gives the player doing worse an advantage, it's just like ultras, its a huge reward for doing nothing but getting beat on
Alzarath Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Meh. X-Factor is dumb, but I'm not losing to some random scrub/masher cuz of it. And wru Shuma ;o wonder what he can dooooooo
eirei Posted March 8, 2011 Posted March 8, 2011 Man I've been preaching about ultras being a shitty mechanic since the dawn of SF4 vanilla, but no one would listen to me. I guess I can't appreciate such a sophisticated and well-tuned comeback mechanic because I like my airdashes. Oh, wait, "well-tuned comeback mechanic" is an oxymoron.
Arvoyea Posted March 9, 2011 Posted March 9, 2011 Man I've been preaching about ultras being a shitty mechanic since the dawn of SF4 vanilla, but no one would listen to me. I guess I can't appreciate such a sophisticated and well-tuned comeback mechanic because I like my airdashes. Oh, wait, "well-tuned comeback mechanic" is an oxymoron. This. A thousand times this. But then again, the game in general is looking silly. Almost everyone has at least one infinite or a 100%, or something similar to that. To be honest, I wasn't even that excited for Marvel 3 soon after I heard about X Factor, but the addition of Haggar and Arthur sorta made up for it. I'm still on the fence in thinking about purchasing it.
SolxBaiken Posted March 9, 2011 Posted March 9, 2011 Unreleased character reveals tell you what you already know.
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