Drill Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 With no jump cancel C and no chains off throws... among the rest... if ArcSys somehow doesn't fix all this... Hazama for Tsubaki tier?
ZhePrime Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 Some changes don't make much sense, like why the stuff with the throw? Or break apart his current combos? That isn't what makes Hazama good.
Spinzaku Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 Some changes don't make much sense, like why the stuff with the throw? Or break apart his current combos? That isn't what makes Hazama good. I think Hazama has great throw options, and there are combos that start on a throw and lead to ~4k/6k relative to meter. Most other characters don't have an option like that without use of an RC. But you're still right either way, it's not the big picture for Hazama. I think they key to nerfing (as much as I hate this word) Hazama revolves around techable time and chains.. not killing his basic BnBs. :S
Guardian Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 Ok, just looked at the vid, and what upset me was 5C, 4D not combo-ing at all on an airborne opponent. So much for 5A anti air hit confirm combos. Off of 3c, it looks like you MIGHT be able to get 214D~D, 2A, 5B, 2C, 4D into whatever.
ZhePrime Posted October 10, 2010 Posted October 10, 2010 I think Hazama has great throw options, and there are combos that start on a throw and lead to ~4k/6k relative to meter. Most other characters don't have an option like that without use of an RC. But you're still right either way, it's not the big picture for Hazama. I think they key to nerfing (as much as I hate this word) Hazama revolves around techable time and chains.. not killing his basic BnBs. :S The key to Hazama's big damage is Jayoku Houtenjin, the sensible thing would be to nerf that move or something. Hazama's other big damage combos are character specific and would be fixed if you nerfed the Drive speed (which was rumoured?) or something.
Jwallz Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 3C knocks opponent upwards - cannot cancel throws into chain - jC: no longer jump cancelable? I raged...HARD
Varamathras Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 From the look of the floating on 3c, it seems like you could do 3c 214d~a 5c continue combo. It's just a theory though.
eirei Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 I wouldn't bet on it, from what I've seen 5c 4d doesn't connect. Could've just been misinputs, but it's more likely that 5c hitstun isn't long enough for the nerfed drive. 2c could work, I guess, but at that point they're too high for you to connect a chain. Well, I won't whine until I get a chance to try this for myself. Although I expect they'll undo a fair bit of these changes by the next loketest.
Warhound Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 From the look of the floating on 3c, it seems like you could do 3c 214d~a 5c continue combo. It's just a theory though. Question is, would 214D~A be fast enough to catch a 3C hit? If it is, there's definitely no room to charge.
Spinzaku Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 The key to Hazama's big damage is Jayoku Houtenjin, the sensible thing would be to nerf that move or something. Hazama's other big damage combos are character specific and would be fixed if you nerfed the Drive speed (which was rumoured?) or something. They already slightly lowered the speed of his drive in the 1st loketest didn't they? I think Jayoku is fine the way it is. It's a combo starter (or close to it) instead of a combo ender which is what every other character has and do the same damage with. If you've got 70-75+ meter at the start of your Jayoku combo then it can lead into 6-7k in a perfect situation. I think the only thing the latter has over most other characters is that Hazama's is more practical?
Justice7541 Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 Here's my take: 6A->Jayoku works (I don't even know why this is listed, maybe didn't work in loketest 1?) Uh okay. Air throw can be followed up by Zaneiga (214D~C). I am trying to imagine what this looks like and failing. It probably means a faster Zaneiga or longer untech/faster recovery after airthrow. Either way that might open up some new combo options after airthrow. 214D~C now makes the opponent spin in the air(?) Sounds like it has an effect like Bang's 2D now? It's not completely useless and it still has some use in corner. - 5B 3C 214D~C doesn't connect anymore See below. - 3C knocks opponent upwards So it has a float effect now? It doesn't say anything about untech time being decreased or followups not working anymore so I guessing that 5B 3C d.5B/5C 2C > whatever will still work. - cannot cancel throws into chain Just do throw > Houtenjin or throw > Jakou. - jC: no longer jump cancelable? (might be first hit only) Just do j.B JC j.C(5) j.214B or j.C(1) JC j.C(5) j.214B. He won't build quite as much meter but his meter gain is ridiculous in CS1 anyway.
eirei Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 - 3C knocks opponent upwards So it has a float effect now? It doesn't say anything about untech time being decreased or followups not working anymore so I guessing that 5B 3C d.5B/5C 2C > whatever will still work. Not gonna happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3whHo26uu0
Justice7541 Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 Not gonna happen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3whHo26uu0 Looks like it might still be possible. At one point he almost links a 3C > d.2A but whiffs because he's too far away. The problem is that i can't tell if Zaneiga is whiffing because it's too low to hit the float or because it's too slow.
Zidane Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 Here's my take: Here's MY take. Who cares? Why is anyone arguing or giving their thoughts or psuedo-combos or anything involving loke test changes? It's a LOKE TEST. It's not final. Even if it was final, no one knows the complete list of changes. Even if you did know the complete list of changes you can't comment on shit unless you actually try the character out in training mode and figure out new shit. I mean even theory fightering has it's place but are we really using theory fighter on location test changes? Seriously?
Varamathras Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 I mean even theory fightering has it's place but are we really using theory fighter on location test changes? Seriously? Why not? It's something to talk about. And if the changes stick, we may already know what to do about them. Let the people have their theories.
Zidane Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 So assuming you read the changes say... a day or two ago, based on what you said, people can already know what to expect and do, as in change their combos and gameplay, about them. That sounds fair I guess. Except you're changing stuff based on changes that might not be there. And if it took a day or two, or even three, or a week to figure out what to do with these changes, what's the problem with waiting for the final copy, or even a final list of changes to come out to alter one's gameplay? Does anyone need to be on top of shit on day one?
Drill Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 Here's an easy answer to why anyone is theory fighting w/ Loketest changes. ...It gives us something to do. Stuff like this is always a shot of activity in the arm. Just let it be. People will rage/complain/try to figure out what DOES work. It's just how it is. Come the next Loketest, we'll either be posting how 'Thank god they undid the shit to Hazama' or be wailing 'OH SHIT HE'S STILL AS BAD AS LAST TIME'. So yeah. Just let people post their minds and theory fight.
Eclipse Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 Well, I don't especially support the idea of arguing over something that technically may not exist in the long-run. But I see nothing wrong with speculation. Theory-fighting sounds kind of stupid. But people can hope/dream or just speculate. Since it's something to do, and helps us understand the different directions and possibilities they could go in with the final result.
wuku Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 here is the full list of changes I got from Korean thread. I got these changes from the trustworthy source but can't guarantee it's 100% correct. Just FYI. Some changes contain the one from LokeTest v.1. - 5B: Attack lvl down, hitbox is weaker. don't know if startup is slower. - 3C: can cancel into 214D and 236D. 3C - 214DA and 3C - 214DB work easily. Enemy floats slightly once hit. - JA: not jump cancellable anymore. - JC: only first 2 hits are jump cancellable. - Ouroboros: General Proration is increased. Stock doesn't recharge once blocked anymore. It recharges only if Ouroboros hits enemy or after a certain frame. D~A cancel is faster now. 6DA - 6DA - 6D combo is now harder to do but still possible. For certain characters, Jakou - (no RC) - J6D is still possible. - 236D (jabaki): looks like no change from CS1.. you can still do 3C - jabaki but followup? - 214D (jasetsu): you can still cancel from 3C. 3C - 214DA and 3C - 214DB still work depending on the distance - 214DA (Ressenga): air hit makes opponent knock down. 214DA - 2A is possible with very strict timing. maybe due to longer recovery? - 214DC (zaneiga): does not pull opponent anymore, rather air float on hit. Zayoku - zaneiga is still possible but follow up combo is harder now with this change. - 623D (jakou), 214DB (Gashoukyaku), 236236B (jayoku) - no change. - Throw: not cancellable to D moves anymore. Back throw doesn't wall-bound anymore. Forward Throw - Jayoku works only at the corner. - Extra: 5A (anti air) - 5C - 4D doesn't work anymore. hm.. looks like a bunch of nerfs but it's still ok to play. General BnB is weaken but max damage with jayoku and jakou are still at the top level. we will see further changes for the next loketest..
Warhound Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 - JC: only first 2 hits are jump cancellable. This bothers me little. I guess I understand what's being done here, that they want to limit his heat gain some. But that also changes the timing at which he has to begin mashing j.C during a combo. If you start it where you normally would, you'd be too high up to make sure the rest connects. - Ouroboros: General Proration is increased. Stock doesn't recharge once blocked anymore. It recharges only if Ouroboros hits enemy and after a certain frame. D~A cancel is faster now. 6DA - 6DA - 6D combo is now harder to do but still possible. For certain characters, Jakou - (no RC) - J6D is still possible. I'm sorry, what? They made A canceling chains faster, but harder to combo with? - 236D (jabaki): looks like no change from CS1.. you can still do 3C - jabaki but followup? Good, Jabaki doesn't need to be changed. - 214DC (zaneiga): does not pull opponent anymore, rather air float on hit. Zayoku - zaneiga is still possible but follow up combo is harder now with this change. Don't understand why you would just make combos harder to do if they are still possible. - Throw: not cancellable to D moves anymore. Back throw doesn't bound anymore. Forward Throw - Jayoku works only at the corner. So throws are now useless, unless under specific circumstances. Mkay Doesn't seem Rachel tier, but some of these changes just seem off.
LordSpectreX Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 Arksys: Okay, so how about we nerf everything, except Hotenjin, which is the thing that should be nerfed. I don't understand the change with jcing j.c. If they wanted Hazama to have lower heat gain, then why didn't they just lower the heat they give rather than fucking around with the combo?
Arifureta Posted October 11, 2010 Posted October 11, 2010 No more Houtenshin after my throws? What is this.
PhoenonX Posted October 12, 2010 Posted October 12, 2010 Anyone else notice that 214D-A smacks the opponent to the ground if it hits them while they are in the air? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwuCgH7CjaQ#t=0m38s
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