[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Janiekenzu]

I never used hakumen a Day in My life, I want to know how to be as good as spark in less then 3 seconds.

[MAdBater]

Being epic. Probably the same with all characters. Know your advantages and disadvantages as learning traps and such. Learn to predict and read your opponent.

[SansProtocol]

Just an update: Typing up the Haku v. Tsubaki/Taokaka match-up reports now and finishing up the one for Platinum (Talking with players and looking through my old replays). I didn't want anyone to think I forgot but I've been busy with moving and school. Be back soon!

[Rudi]

Awesome stuff! How long do you think you'll take?

[Toonice714]

i dont remember DL's policy about profanity but..... FUCK YEAH SPARK!!!! TAKE THAT TIER WHORES IN MY AREA!!!! FUCK YOUR PRIORITY!!! IBing and HOTARU/PUNISH COMBOS F T MUTHAFUCKIN W!!!!

[SansProtocol]

Awesome stuff! How long do you think you'll take?

Tomorrow, when I get back from school in the afternoon.

i dont remember DL's policy about profanity but..... FUCK YEAH SPARK!!!! TAKE THAT TIER WHORES IN MY AREA!!!! FUCK YOUR PRIORITY!!! IBing and HOTARU/PUNISH COMBOS F T MUTHAFUCKIN W!!!!

Spark won because it's Spark. The only reason people aren't usually winning with Hakumen is because of skill, not character strength.

Could you do a Platinum write-up? A tournament is coming up soon and the local Platinum player gives me trouble.

It's up now. Sorry it took so long but it's been quite busy for me.

Edited August 9, 2011 by SansProtocol

[Shiny Umbreon]

After seeing those videos of spark at evo, I just wanted to say:

What the fuck Spark. What. The. Fuck.

I didn't even know half of the things you were doing were even possible on hakumen, and oh my god your defense was mind blowing.

Jesus christ

[zdravkelja]

Just awesome.. Not so much for combos, but anticipation and reactions were beyond godlike

[Postulio]

i like the fact that he was just smiling the whole time... kinda like "this is somewhat amusing"

stupid xplay only showed MvC and SF... typical. they bend over backwards for that company

[zdravkelja]

So, 6A is back

[zreb]

for now. they could easily pull it before the final version. i would like for them not to, however. :p

[IndigoNovember]

6a coming back is funny. We won't lose 5a air unblockable in return for 6a will we? Renka coming back (wallbound midscreen) is also amusing, it's like they decided they didn't like getting rid of the wallbound.

It's like we're going backwards. Back to CT, back to CS, back ... to the future. (Sorry, I'll stop (_ _; ) )

Edited August 13, 2011 by IndigoNovember

[ryokoalways]

6A isn't back. It isn't nearly as fast, and it also depends on how much head invun it has (remember, that thing was free AA in CT. There are very few free AAs in CS2). Also, the hit trajectory changed, which is why 6A>5A doesn't work anymore. Counter hit pending on how good the move will be.

jC's startup frame seems to have changed. The arm extension seems to come a bit later, may offer a little better hitbox. Could just be imagining things.

No idea how 4C charge will be useful unless there is another change associated with it. full charge breaks primer, staggers on ground hit, more damage. Unless the proration is better than 5C, I see no reason for any of those advantages. Still need to check frame advantage on block and hitbox modifications though.

kishuu with projectile invun is el oh fucking el.

Also, it's unfortunate that the camera guy didn't keep hakumen's meter in his sight. I wanted to see what the meter gain nerf is in this loc test, but he moved out of range when hakumen burned meter.

Mostly disappointed they didn't try to revamp the primer system. Otherwise not much to comment since focus is on relius, not so much balance for this loc test.

[Moblin]

Maybe 4c is an easy midscreen BnB extender. Renka to wallbounce ----> charged 4c ---> gurren ---> hop again and combo

[WolfCrimson]

Am I the only one who doesn't want the loketest 6A? I like it as is now, it's a pressure tool and combo extender, 5A>6A>5A is really cool to look at, and useful too for corner carry and meter gain.

[ryokoalways]

Depends on other factors. Having a reliable AA will make controlling space much easier. In CS1, you could just whore out hotaru. In CS2, meter comes at too much of a premium, and 5A, while reliable in a lot of situations, loses in the risk/reward department in just as many. Ignoring potential change in frame data, trading a combo piece for a defensive option is a good trade. If other options arise, then the benefits can be called into question again.

Moblin, that would be a worst case situation for me. 4C was originally added as a space control tool. In the current loc test, their change didn't address its zoning deficiencies, but instead added fluff that turns it into a move that Hakumen doesn't really need. I don't need another combo piece, and I can just use 6C to break primer within a similar situation. All the current additions overlap with benefits on moves that Hakumen already has.

[Arcknight]

Maybe it is just me but I will sometimes use a fully charged 6C to gain a little meter. Most people will just tech neutral and block it in the corner(this is assuming one could not close the distance for better control) or even mid-screen. I realize it is a pretty lame tactic but it nets a primer and a little meter I suppose. 4C charged could do much the same but it just does not seem necessary. I have randomly hit people with a fatal from 6C though. Which is sad.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Arcknight

[MAdBater]

the new 4c i read can be chained into renka. Combo routes are cool but i remember most thing off 4c be be heavily scaled.

the kishuu and 6a changes seem the most interesting to me. can it even go threw ragna's dead spike attack? dead spike has only a projectile property.

[Arcknight]

Would Renka even reach an opponent if chained from 4C? I am skeptical of how useful that would even be. Not that more options are bad. Corner only?

[SansProtocol]

The proration on 4C in that loketest is the same. The only big difference I see with the charge is that you can special-cancel 4C while you can only Distortion-cancel 6C. Still waiting on what people have been testing with it.

Would Renka even reach an opponent if chained from 4C? I am skeptical of how useful that would even be. Not that more options are bad. Corner only?

I think a charged 4C pulls them closer.

Edited August 13, 2011 by SansProtocol

[Arcknight]

I think a charged 4C pulls them closer.

If that is true then I could see some use to it.

[SansProtocol]

If that is true then I could see some use to it.

This way I see it is if it staggered them long enough to connect with the second hit of Renka without pulling them in, you could do any other special/Shippu else in that timeframe.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I gotta agree with ryoko on the 4c stuff. I personally don't see any uses to it, it's already a questionable zoning tool against characters like Ragna. And making it charge doesn't make it any better to be honest. Less startup frames and/or a wider hitbox would help. But yea the knockback on 6a now is huge, the only move I think that could follow it up is 2c, but I'm guessing that'll be too slow to do that. But we haven't seen the untech time or knockback from a CH 6a yet either.

I'm glad 6a is back personally, kishuu having complete projectile invincibility is just insane lol. "Get in free against zoners" move lol.

I completely forgot this thread even existed lol

[IndigoNovember]

So we lost 5a -> 6a -> 5a which means we go to our next best option 5a -> 5b .

• Hotaru -> j.c -> Gurren -> hop 5a -> 6a -> 5a -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (3183).
  
• Hotaru -> j.c -> Gurren -> hop 5a -> 5b -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (3177).
  
  6 damage difference (─▽─) .
  Conclusion: Sure it's a nerf, but it's so miniscule it doesn't matter.
  
  Renka wallbouncing midscreen could serve as a replacement for Renka -> Gurren depending on how they do the trajectory (it seems like it wallbounces less than Renka -> Gurren according to the video posted in the video thread, so I don't know if j.a -> j.b carry combos will still work since the hitboxes on j.a and j.b seem pretty small to me).
  
  • 5c -> Renka -> 5a -> 5b -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (3212)
    
  • 5c -> Renka -> Gurren -> 5a -> 5b -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (3409)
    
  • 5c -> Renka -> j.b -> 5a -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (3235) //This is stuff I hobbled together since I couldn't get j.a -> j.b working in the corner after a Renka.
    
  • 5c -> Renka -> Gurren -> j.b -> 5a -> j.2a -> AD j.2a -> j.c (3443) //It still proves the point I want to make about the damage values though.
    

  If we can still do the j.a -> j.b carry combos, then it'd be a great help. We would still get quite a good amount of damage (only ~200 less) and carry for one less magatama.

  Conclusion: Nice buff both with and without the j.a -> j.b carry combos.

  Kishuu being projectile invincible and getting distance up is crazy, guess I gotta practice mashing out Inferno Dividing in silly casuals in preparation for how much I'll be using it.

  6a being a good anti-air but possibly uncomboable is interesting. I guess we'd just be using it to dissuade jump-ins? It seems like the situation, from what I can understand is:

  opponent jumps in with some air to ground attack -> you 6a him -> he takes 620 damage (assuming they don't change the amount of damage it does) and is knocked back in the air -> you continue doing whatever you were doing (IAD air throw if you're Spark and those EVO videos are any indication of how Spark plays (＾∇＾) , nice reset).

  Charged 4c is amusing. If someone gets hit by it you could cancel into Renka and then potentially go into j.a -> j.b carry combo. That would probably be the best situation we can get out of it. Really though, I do wonder how many people would get hit by it. Probably not enough to warrant charging it. Using it to break primers... I didn't know we were in that field （´_ゝ`） .

[zreb]

The 5a 6a 5a nerf isn't just about damage. 5a 5b has less corner push and (probably) less meter gain as well for combos where it doesn't fall on the cooldown period, both of which are less minuscule than it dealing than 7 less damage.

6a AA may or may not actually be good depending on when it gets that head invuln and for how long. Tager's 2C has head invuln but that doesn't make it reliable because it starts up so late and only has 3 frames. Many people are probably hearing "6a AA" and naturally going "CT CT CT." As far as comboability, I am frankly not surprised at it not being comboable. My assumption is that using 6A will naturally be far lower risk than using 6D/j.D or 5a, so the reward is lower. Supposedly it has corner bound in the loktest right now, but that seems rather situational to me outside of combos.

Charged 4c seems fully questionable outside combos, as ryoko pointed out. They gave a few characters charges like that (and Tager's is the only one that seemed to make sense at all), so it definitely seems like an experimental thing for now.