[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Spark]

Oh if you right click on a youtube video you can get the url to it's current play time.

From it video I can't tell if it's faster or if dead spike just has more recovery so Ragna couldn't jump fast enough.

[mAc Chaos]

He should have super jumped, it looks like he normal jumped.

[BladeOfJustice7]

@Spark It looked as if Ragna was stuck in his death spike as Hakumen was moving though. What I'm wondering is if we got some sort of projectile buff with yukikaze.

[Isuna]

Saw an interesting strategy in the vids posted here. Going into OD right at the beginning to bump up a few stars to work with? Don't know if it's worth it or not, how long until your burst/OD comes back? Or is it dependent on a factor like, getting it back faster the more you take hits?

I'm pretty sure it is unaffected (then again, the burst guage some times flashes so I could be wrong).

I counted once that a burst generated in about 50 seconds, so an OD should recover in about 40.

How long would a full health OD last? A couple seconds tops?

Three seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhOgcV8_D5E&t=3m

You're still not speaking making any sense Isuna

Probably not, but hey, that's why I'm asking. : D

knockdown is knockdown, when your combo(s) end in knockdown near you, you get oki. If they might dp, bait it. You're making it sound like oki and knockdown is a stupid dangerous design because you might get hit by your opponent. Plus you don't even really have to spend stars on oki, since his grab game is even stronger than it was before thanks to kishuu and a much faster hop speed.

Oki obviously is good, however I thought it was better for Hakumen to go to neutral.

[mAc Chaos]

Having them down on wakeup is always better than neutral.

It's basically neutral, except you have time to set up any attack you want and they have to guess or take it.

Well, I guess if you were a zoner or something, then you wouldn't want to get in their face, so I see what you mean. So it's not ALWAYS better, but Hakumen certainly has enough good tools to make use of his own oki.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Well, I guess if you were a zoner or something, then you wouldn't want to get in their face, so I see what you mean. So it's not ALWAYS better, but Hakumen certainly has enough good tools to make use of his own oki.

Agito/Kishuu/6b/Hop>Grab/Stuff. For a "defensive" character that's pretty good.

[Dream Maker]

Oki obviously is good, however I thought it was better for Hakumen to go to neutral.

It's certainly not better to go to neutral. You're probably right to say that Hakumen has a better neutral game than pressure game, but this isn't very relevant because in that case we're talking about okizeme, not pressure. IMO his neutral game is decent but in no way so superior to everyone that you would want go to neutral all day. You're not Lambda or Hazama, you don't have that great control on neutral to keep your opponents at bay and limit their options. You're a slow, big character that has very good normals indeed but who can still be outpoked and lose the neutral game to a bad mistake in anticipation or reaction.

Did you used to not end your corner loops in CSEX by 5C ou 5C, 3C? If you did your best to end these combos with 5C or 3C then you probably understood the importance of knockdown, even if that wasn't conscious.

Let's put things simple, when you get a knockdown your opponent is left with only 2 choices for escaping, that are mashing whatever invincible move or escape by rolling. You have the time to set up an okizeme that can bait those options or setup a better mixup if your opponent is conditioned to block anyway. So there are only 2 things to fear in that case really.

Now if you go at neutral, you can indeed try to play the clock and have your magatama charged by themselves (and that's assuming you have the life lead) but you're exposed to : whiffing your poke and get outpoked, getting anti-aired, missing your anti-air and get countered, having your opponent able to close-in and having to block his pressure game, not being able to close in because of the shit the opponent throws at you, etc... In short, many more countless possible bad outcomes if you mess up. The reason being that at neutral your opponent is left with all his options available, and you can't deny them by anything else than guessing/reacting.

So the odds simply are in favor of knockdown. There is no reason not to take advantage of them unless you really need to get more damage or unless you're totally confident that you can dominate your opponent at neutral which with Hakumen isn't gonna happen pretty often IMO unless maybe you're playing against Tager.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Dream Maker

[Warhound]

Yea it's absolutely worthless, and I find players really have no respect for Hakumen's defense this time around, though I can't blame them. Unless they're for an obvious repetitive mid/low it's hard for him to punish their block strings.

It's even for to take some time to figure out how to counter bangs nail.

I was thinking about this, and now people have almost no reason to repsect our wake-up anymore. The only thing standing in the way of us becoming as terrible at wake up as Barkenhayn is Yukikaze. Didn't j.D also take a hit? Like it can't be activated right away?

I'm digging his meter gain though, he'll definitely be a lot more engaging to play as now. Oh, has anyone been seeing people use CT to actually break through guards? Or do people usually have too much barrier for that to happen? With his increased meter potential, he could stand to use it more than the rest of the cast.

[toanenadiz]

Does your backdash still lack invincibility frames?

[BladeOfJustice7]

I was thinking about this, and now people have almost no reason to repsect our wake-up anymore. The only thing standing in the way of us becoming as terrible at wake up as Barkenhayn is Yukikaze. Didn't j.D also take a hit? Like it can't be activated right away?

We still also have 2d, but as long as people don't really go for repetitive lows, then it's not really a problem for them. But yes, it hurts to see Hakumen's defensive no longer being as respectable as it once was.

Though I look forward to seeing Spark use cp hakumen, he always manages to innovate in someway how to use hakumen.

I'm digging his meter gain though, he'll definitely be a lot more engaging to play as now. Oh, has anyone been seeing people use CT to actually break through guards? Or do people usually have too much barrier for that to happen? With his increased meter potential, he could stand to use it more than the rest of the cast.

People barrier a lot more, but I've seen guards broken a lot but it's not that often, you have to keep in mind how slow ct's come out now anyways.

Does your backdash still lack invincibility frames?

Yup, but its gotten a big speed buff. He can move around faster on the ground now.

[Isuna]

Thanks for clearing it out for me, guys. : )

Didn't j.D also take a hit? Like it can't be activated right away?

I tried to test it last time, but I don't know if me playing is any proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhOgcV8_D5E&t=5m56s

However, when I played before I am pretty sure I did the Yukikaze whiff JD so...

edit:

I was checking the JBBS since I haven't done that since release, and I found some stuff. I don't have time to check if they are written down in the changes thread as I am in a lesson right now, so sorry if you already know.

* Proration for 5D and 2D is 60, JD is 45 and 6D is 80

* Max 6C wall bounces on air hit

* 5D Emma > J2C > 5C > CT > 5C > Kishuu > 2C > JB > J2A > J2C > Agito gives 4438

* you can forward air dash cancel Hotaru on block

* CH 3C chains to both 5C and 2C

one guy said that

* Shippuu start up is 9F

* 6D start-up is 14～16F

* blocked Zanshin is negative

Edited November 27, 2012 by Isuna

[dioxideUniversa]

re OD: i paid attention to this and found that a lot of times it did not seem like a particularly balanced game plan to OD at the start of the match for 2 stars. it seemed like something certain players did who played more aggressively than other hakumens, but i personally found it was not worth relinquishing their burst for two stars. a lot of time they would end up pooling at 8 stars getting pressured/combo'd when it was kind of a moot point.

i can see why some are doing it, tho.

also 6d being 16 frames start up is about as useful as a "DP" gaining invulnerability on frame 16

[BladeOfJustice7]

one guy said that

* Shippuu start up is 9F

yea it seemed slightly slower, I saw a hakumen trying to punish hazama's 3c, and he was able to block shippu.

Sounds like shippu got overall nerfed except in proration. No biggy though, the 2 frame extra startup might make a difference once in a while.

* 6D start-up is 14～16F

WOW o_O

This move is definitely dead.

* blocked Zanshin is negative

D:!!

Now THAT is wack.

re OD: i paid attention to this and found that a lot of times it did not seem like a particularly balanced game plan to OD at the start of the match for 2 stars. it seemed like something certain players did who played more aggressively than other hakumens, but i personally found it was not worth relinquishing their burst for two stars. a lot of time they would end up pooling at 8 stars getting pressured/combo'd when it was kind of a moot point.

i can see why some are doing it, tho.

Agreed, wasting a burst when he already has incredibly fast meter gain and gains extra meter for just about doing anything makes it pointless. And those that do use kishin at the start of the round either lose or nearly lose. Good thing about it is that usually you'll have your burst back by the end of the round.

also 6d being 16 frames start up is about as useful as a "DP" gaining invulnerability on frame 16

Agreed. 6d is the only thing that still gripes me at this point in the game, and I know it'll me even more when I get my hands on this game.

Edited November 27, 2012 by BladeOfJustice7

[dioxideUniversa]

isn't shippu 10F startup in CSE?

[BladeOfJustice7]

@dioxide

Shippu strike: 3+7[3+78]

Shippu wave: 3+11

[mAc Chaos]

* blocked Zanshin is negative

what the fu

[dioxideUniversa]

just hit parry again

honor your title

[toanenadiz]

* blocked Zanshin is negative

Why would they do that to Haku?

But he is supposedly S-tier right now according to one player so I guess it works out somehow.

[BladeOfJustice7]

@toan

His offense got buffed, his defense got nerfed basically.

[mAc Chaos]

S tier

i refuse to believe

you see amane and azrael dropping 8k combos like its nothing, haku spends like 80 stars to do 3k

[BladeOfJustice7]

He's good, not bad, not stupid good, not stupid bad, just simply good. If he had his csex counters, he would be really good complete. But this new magatama gain

and OD yukikaze

has me looking forward to him, and his combos look hella easy now lol.

Azrael 8k combos? Gonna go check the Azrael forums now.

[Tecta1Eastside]

Hakumen always raw even if you nerf him

[dioxideUniversa]

he wouldn't die even if you killed him?

[itsme]

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets ranked high again, especially since his OD really looks like one of the best ODs in the game; considering he can play with it anyway he wants it compared to the other character's ODs where they have to usually forward it to offense. His mag gain really does a great job keeping up with the game speed and his -nerfed- damage, its kind of lame what happened to his drives yeah but I guess it is still usable and good enough to be a threat. I guess at the end, CP Hakumen looks a lot like Arksys trying to take Haku back to his CT roots where more mags = more damage rather than sticking with the CS1/E 1 mag = 1k system.

Also, combo-able CH 3C and 6B in the new basic combo video looks really good, seeing Zantetsu becoming relevant again is fun too.

Edited November 27, 2012 by itsme

[Isuna]

About Zanshin being negative on block, it was just one person who mentioned it so it is not necassarily true.

However, as they nerfed just about everything except the damage, it wouldn't surprise me either.

Mori's plan: make counters so useless in their normal state, that they are so unexpected during OD that they always work.

Combos, easy? I have never ever jump canceled in the air before! XD

I was at the arcade today again, so expect some crappy footage.

I tested OD and indeed full health is about 3 seconds and takes you to 3 magatama. (I guess you knew that from videos, but anyway)

On the other hand low health Kishin gives about 10 magatamas.

Are you supposed to delay 2C after CT or must you super jump the JB? T_T