[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[itsme]

Actually, it's 17f start up unless if I'm (or the Arcadia article/jbbs) not mistaken, with 6 frames of recovery.

[mAc Chaos]

> 6A

> 16 frames

> 6D

> 17 frames

.

[toanenadiz]

It's really 17 frames? Is there anything it can be used against on reaction?

[hipikachu]

It's really 17 frames? Is there anything it can be used against on reaction?

Hazama 6A perhaps?

[Ctrlaltwtf]

So did they make all Zanshin have "slow startup but fast recovery" now? No I don't keep track of CP Haku regularly. All I knew that changed was that they became blockable

[hipikachu]

So did they make all Zanshin have "slow startup but fast recovery" now? No I don't keep track of CP Haku regularly. All I knew that changed was that they became blockable

* 2D counters low/mid, 1F startup.

* 6D counters high/mid, now has 10F startup, short recovery, highly buffed proration (45% > 80%), possible to combo without OD.

* 5D catches high/mid, now chargeable (charge lengthens active frames at the cost of lengthening recovery).

* j.D now has minimum height requirement, otherwise unchanged.

Personally I think they're just f*cking with his drive for the sake of proving that this isn't just some rehash of CS. It wouldn't have hurt to just change

* 5D active 16 -> active 10

* 6D active 9 -> active 10 (no raw damage [like CT], proration buff 80%)

* 2D active 8 -> active 10

* j.D active 7 -> active 10 (minimum height required)

The whole chargable 5D thing is awkward. That, and 5D really didn't need the 16 active frames it has. Just -6 from 5D, and "spread" the remaining active frames towards the other drives (6D, 2D, j.D).

Credits to Ratix08 for taking the time to daydream all this.

[SansProtocol]

eeing the damage players are getting off of these counters, I'm not too mad about it. That may change when I actually get my hands on the game.

Heaven forbid we have to block overheads instead of completely reversing the momentum off of a gap in a blockstring or a projectile.

Instead, they just gave him even more lol damage and meter for blocking/teching/staying alive.

Either way, if Hakumen players would put a great effort into video breakdowns and long discussions on matchups using good experience, I'm down. Just hesitant since the last Dustloop effort failed miserably. Know we can do it though.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

* j.D active 7 -> active 10 (minimum height required)

Most sensible change to me, tk.jD was too much of an easy way out imo.

[hipikachu]

Most sensible change to me, tk.jD was too much of an easy way out imo.

I know, like I posted in the Valky boards. You can actually win the entire match using nothing but j.D, Yukikaze, and the occasional grab. I've done it numerous times before against good Valkenhayns using my pink Haku.

[toanenadiz]

Either way, if Hakumen players would put a great effort into video breakdowns and long discussions on matchups using good experience, I'm down. Just hesitant since the last Dustloop effort failed miserably. Know we can do it though.

You guys tried that in the past?

[SansProtocol]

5A is your best tool against Valk. J.D will get laughed at by anyone who is competent and can use wolf form well.

EDIT: Nah, I was talking about the video tutorial effort DL wanted to make for each BB character but it never for anywhere. I would have quoted your post, Toan, but my phone kinda sucks at it.

Edited January 27, 2013 by SansProtocol

[mAc Chaos]

Sans made a lot of good posts. That was about it.

[Isuna]

This is what I'm referring to.

Then it isn't a cancel. Not sure if "link" is the correct term, but "cancel" isn't.

"Goes to", "chains to" or "combos to" I would think are okay substitutes.

Hazama 6A perhaps?

Impossible.

If 6D is 17F and a tenth of a second is the fastest time it is humanly possible to react, you'd miss by 1F.

Even it was possible to react during earlier, you are asking people to that to an attack that has 90% hit chance even though it has 22F start-up. : p

Tager 6C would give one 8F to react.

Most sensible change to me, tk.jD was too much of an easy way out imo.

But what is the purpose of JD?

I mean 2D is our low, 6D was our instant overhead, 5D was the "easy-catch" you'd use against projectiles and such.

What role could JD possible fill, especially now when it can't be used as a 5F anti-overhead?

The whole chargable 5D thing is awkward. That, and 5D really didn't need the 16 active frames it has. Just -6 from 5D, and "spread" the remaining active frames towards the other drives (6D, 2D, j.D).

I think it is pretty good actually. Like I said above, 5D with its non-instant nature but long active time made it good at catching projectiles for a noob like me.

I think itsme said that delaying 5D doesn't even increase recovery... that is just... good.

As far as I am concerned as long 6D and 2D are instant I'm quite pleased. I think the Zanshin Emma looks quite silly, I'd rather seen another change. Heck, why not remove the invulnerability from the recovery of the Zanshin attacks, but make it possible to stop the attack by holding D or something (similar to Carnage Scissor).

[psycofang2]

Heck, why not remove the invulnerability from the recovery of the Zanshin attacks, but make it possible to stop the attack by holding D or something (similar to Carnage Scissor).

because in a sense thats absurd.

that forces the player to guess further than they can possibly react, im more than positive mostplayers cannot react to the autoguard of Zanshin, even the user or people with a DP could easily CH him out of a successful Zanshin (its doable even in CSEX)

for example were ragna to run up and 5B you 5D he reacts to the auto guard and DPs, despite the counter being successful hakumen WILL get CH'd by IDs last remaining frames because his drive has CH state near the end of his invincibility.

to remove the invincibility off the recovery would turn the risk reward almost completely out of favor for hakumen, for example (i forget which Azreal vsh aku vid it is) Azreal did a falling C on hakumen, haku 5D'd despite this being a C move (meaning its a sure fire catch) and hakumen successfully countering it, Azreal landed and blocked the counter and started his pressure.

were the invulnerablity removed hakumen would have gotten horribly PUNISHED for using his tool correctly.

even then holding D to stop the grab without some sort of safeguard (like carnage scissors) is asking to get hit (like carnage scissors) .

even then the speed the user has to react to 1. the attack hes not even 100% sure hes about to counter, 2. the attack itself and 3. the autoguard to hold D and stop a possible successful counter or a possible failure.

[Isuna]

I'm not sure if that Hakumen is invulnerable during the entire cancel got through to you or not? Though, it still causes mind games after it that are not necessarily favourable to him. When you put the perspective on it with the reversals being able to hit it if it whiffs I can agree that it is kind of bad.

What I had in mind was addressing the people who claim Zanshin makes projectile oki/pressure worthless: Hakumen would be able to use Zanshin to block the projectile, gain 1 magatama, but he would have to make the choice if he wants to commit to the counter attack or are happy with the destroyed projectile and extra magatama. Obviously, I'd return the unblockableness of it.

[psycofang2]

I'm not sure if that Hakumen is invulnerable during the entire cancel got through to you or not? I dont recall you stating he was invincible through the cancle just the statement of removing the invulnerability, the was no retcon Though, it still causes mind games after it that are not necessarily favourable to him. Its more for the safeguard ofnot being punished for using a tool correctly, the mindgames come second imo.When you put the perspective on it with the reversals being able to hit it if it whiffs I can agree that it is kind of bad.

What I had in mind was addressing the people who claim Zanshin makes projectile oki/pressure worthless: Hakumen would be able to use Zanshin to block the projectile, gain 1 magatama, but he would have to make the choice if he wants to commit to the counter attack or are happy with the destroyed projectile and extra magatama. Obviously, I'd return the unblockableness of it. you didnt state that earlier, i wet off the notion that the UBs of the grabs were gone

i placed some bolds in there.

just a misunderstanding.

Edited January 27, 2013 by psycofang2

[Isuna]

I was thinking pre-CP "we need to change it somehow"-mindset, that and my lack of explanation caused the misunderstanding.

But I wouldn't go nerf it more than it already is. : p

As much as I love discussing balance and ideas, I am kind of sad whatever would come out of it here, will never be read by anyone that actually has any power to do anything about it.

On a completely different note, can you do JB > Tsubaki and go for combo? Is it height specific?

[psycofang2]

you cannot combo of tsubaki in CP. unles in mugen.

in CSEX you can if high enough jB>tsubaki>ad>jB>land>w/e

closer toth ground itsalot tigter but tsubaku hop gurren or kishuu gurren.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

The point of j.D is baiting anti airs, that's by far the best use. I'm not sure how harsh the minimum height requirement is, but I can't believe it's severe enough to prevent you from going IAD > (Ragna 6A) > j.D

Haku-men relies on AD a lot because of his ghetto hop ground maneuverability, so he's naturally weak to characters with strong AA. j.D is just another mix-up tool added to this scenario (Am I going to IAD 2C you, or am I going to IAD j.D your AA?)

[mAc Chaos]

I'm not sure if that Hakumen is invulnerable during the entire cancel got through to you or not? Though, it still causes mind games after it that are not necessarily favourable to him. When you put the perspective on it with the reversals being able to hit it if it whiffs I can agree that it is kind of bad.

What I had in mind was addressing the people who claim Zanshin makes projectile oki/pressure worthless: Hakumen would be able to use Zanshin to block the projectile, gain 1 magatama, but he would have to make the choice if he wants to commit to the counter attack or are happy with the destroyed projectile and extra magatama. Obviously, I'd return the unblockableness of it.

Well, you already have that with the Enma followup. If you want to go for big damage and they are close enough you can try, but you can get hit out of it.

A cancel is when you cancel the recovery of a move into another move. In Kishuu > OD > stuff that isn't happening, so it's a link. A link is just when you can combo off the stun of a move with another move. For instance, 3C CH > 2B.

As for putting stuff up for the matchup threads, we'll have a fresh start with CP. Although that means we will have to relearn a lot of stuff.

The point of j.D is baiting anti airs, that's by far the best use. I'm not sure how harsh the minimum height requirement is, but I can't believe it's severe enough to prevent you from going IAD > (Ragna 6A) > j.D

Haku-men relies on AD a lot because of his ghetto hop ground maneuverability, so he's naturally weak to characters with strong AA. j.D is just another mix-up tool added to this scenario (Am I going to IAD 2C you, or am I going to IAD j.D your AA?)

Isuna means though that you could use j.D as a ghetto 6D replacement before, not so much with the height requirement.

If we really want to nail that overhead we still have Yukikaze though.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

If we really want to nail that overhead we still have Yukikaze though.

For which I'm glad. I hope to see more situations where Yukikaze is needed.

Isuna means though that you could use j.D as a ghetto 6D replacement before, not so much with the height requirement.

He said this:

What role could JD possible fill, especially now when it can't be used as a 5F anti-overhead?

So I felt bound to point out the AA bait strategy. Even when we could use it as a ghetto 6D, it was worse than 6D because you couldn't combo off of it. Really the character it was best used against was

OH MY GOD

Tager, because it helped avoid just about everything he can do on GF.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[mAc Chaos]

Oh okay.

Oh well, we can always 5A them instead if we already have 5 frames of time to act.

[hipikachu]

The point of j.D is baiting anti airs, that's by far the best use. I'm not sure how harsh the minimum height requirement is, but I can't believe it's severe enough to prevent you from going IAD > (Ragna 6A) > j.D

Not quite sure about this, but making it minimum air grab height would be more than reasonable. I mean, the current TK j.D kills any rock-paper-scissors game we had against him. Not only could you not air-to-air or anti-air him, you couldn't grab him either. Besides, according to Aksys, Agito is supposed to be his new ani-anti-air, not j.D.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Not quite sure about this, but making it minimum air grab height would be more than reasonable. I mean, the current TK j.D kills any rock-paper-scissors game we had against him. Not only could you not air-to-air or anti-air him, you couldn't grab him either. Besides, according to Aksys, Agito is supposed to be his new ani-anti-air, not j.D.

Well if it really does get debunked as an A-AA then there's not much point to it anymore besides countering projectiles in the air for the sake of meter gain. I suppose you could use it against jumping attacks but the situations where that happens (both players in the air, near each other, not being combod or pressured) rarely, if ever, actually allow for reactions.

[Spark]

So it looks like you can do 2B follow up on TK Tsubaki if it CHs them when they're in the air. I don't remember which video, but it happened in one of the recent ones.