[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Dreize]

J.D will get laughed at by anyone who is competent and can use wolf form well.

Whenever you're above us we tend to w.5B you on reaction. j.D can at times be good in that situation.

I know, like I posted in the Valky boards. You can actually win the entire match using nothing but j.D, Yukikaze, and the occasional grab. I've done it numerous times before against good Valkenhayns using my pink Haku.

I can vouch for this.

[psycofang2]

5A is your best tool against Valk. J.D will get laughed at by anyone who is competent and can use wolf form well..

i think that was the keyword. you can beat anyone just mashing JD yukikaze and w/e else. a competent player can and will bait this.

also JD has falling and landing recovery. just hit a button as he falls, he cant do anything but get hit. I have had to teach too many to stop doing it.

Valks that wolf 5B on reaction just because im in the air and not because im in the air hitting a button are free to jD, the other valks (NeoGio) will blow you up for even trying that.

NeoGio hurt my haku baaaaad.

[Dreize]

I can and will w.5B Haku's in the air on reaction until they start j.D'ing me.

The great thing about w.5B is the quick 7 frames of start-up that can and will beat out slower air normals that have been poorly timed such as j.2C.

Of course, a competent player will bait Haku's counters in some instances. However, these are mostly 1 frame counter's that we are talking about. They are meant to exploit and tear apart playstyles/patterns, simply saying that "baiting" them is the answer to everything is next to nonsensical because you're essentially leaving out the fact that amazing yomi is required to do such a thing on a consistent basis (obviously this is dependent on how good the Haku player is).

Obviously j.D is punishable if whiffed, as are DP's; that doesn't automatically imply that the tool has no place in the match-up though. Just a less prevalent place since the risk/reward is in Valky's favor and it's one of (if not) Haku's worst counter.

If I play a Haku player 10 times and he never uses j.D, then on the 11th game he starts using it. Am I going to get j.D'd a few times? Sure. It's all about the mind games.

[psycofang2]

I can and will w.5B Haku's in the air on reaction until they start j.D'ing me. .

I know, like I posted in the Valky boards. You can actually win the entire match using nothing but j.D, Yukikaze, and the occasional grab. I've done it numerous times before against good Valkenhayns using my pink Haku.

i was kinda responding to this.

even then yomi in and of itself is a risk/random mashing.

its bad if it fails and pro if it works.

im not saying you are wrong, i usually almost never use drive unless the enemy gets too comfortable. but the post i was responding too, and now i realized i roped you into it, makes it seem a little too simple. you can always win off the most simplistic means no matter the character, problem with this is someone else can bait these a means which calls for becoming more complex.

i dont recall saying it didnt belong in the match up, not at all actually, but the over use of it is indeed bad. just as being simplistic can work for and equally against you.

now in my own personal experience i almost never find myself using jD to fight w.5b simply because of the height you need to be at, TK JD is in my honest opinion not a good thing to even mash. it turns into a 5f counter if you add jump start up to the equation, why not just 5D? its just as fast and can be comboed off of for free.

the only thing i do agree on is the fact it makes it ground grab invulnerable. but then this leads to another issue about what comes after. i am not getting into that.

[Dreize]

It can at times be hard to perceive text in it's intended manner, but Pikachu is most definitely being sarcastic/trolling/joking. He's well aware that any competent Valky who is actually taking the match seriously wont lose to such nonsense. To further point out that he was joking he even stated that he uses "a pink Haku".

i dont recall saying it didnt belong in the match up, not at all actually, but the over use of it is indeed bad.

Agreed. This is what I was trying to point out.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I find 2A to work well in the Valk matchup too.

[itsme]

So it looks like you can do 2B follow up on TK Tsubaki if it CHs them when they're in the air. I don't remember which video, but it happened in one of the recent ones.

I haven't seen it but I wonder if we can confirm it with a better follow up move than 2B like Renka > CT or even 5C > whatever from a CH Tsubaki.

[hipikachu]

now in my own personal experience i almost never find myself using jD to fight w.5b simply because of the height you need to be at, TK JD is in my honest opinion not a good thing to even mash. it turns into a 5f counter if you add jump start up to the equation, why not just 5D? its just as fast and can be comboed off of for free.

the only thing i do agree on is the fact it makes it ground grab invulnerable. but then this leads to another issue about what comes after. i am not getting into that.

Don't forget though, Not only can a Valk alter his w[5B] timing, Haku can alter his j.D timing. Going with j.D instead of 5D is a lot more fun because:

<1> Grab invulnerable

<2> Anti-low

<3> 2k without execution

<4> Magic oki

<5> Lack of execution required makes you seem a lot scrubbier

To further point out that he was joking he even stated that he uses "a pink Haku".

And yes, my pink Haku is obviously pro. Just like my pink Bang and his infinite FRKZ grab mixup. I've destroyed many a Haku with Bang's grab "abuse," not spam :P

Edited January 28, 2013 by hipikachu

[dioxideUniversa]

doesn't the whole haku j.D vs. valk w.5B have to take into account that in this theoretical scenario valk cannot block if the haku pushes a button instead of j.D

i would think that "just baiting it" would be a little more tricky because he'd have to run out of the way in that small window as opposed to block if he wasn't sure if the haku was going to push a button like j.B or j.2C instead of j.D

[mAc Chaos]

j.D is not anti low. You can get hit out of the jump startup. At least if it's a meaty.

[dioxideUniversa]

mostly my reaction to that was "most lows recover faster than j.D" than the fact that it could be easily be meaty.

[mAc Chaos]

That too.

[Isuna]

Well, you already have that with the Enma followup. If you want to go for big damage and they are close enough you can try, but you can get hit out of it.

Like I said in the original post, I think Zanshin Emma is kind of silly.

I haven't seen it but I wonder if we can confirm it with a better follow up move than 2B like Renka > CT or even 5C > whatever from a CH Tsubaki.

Isn't Renka just 1F slower than 2B? If 2B works, I think we can be fairly sure that Renka works.

5C is another 5F so that is in the grey zone.

Though, how often do one get airCH TK Tsubaki?

[dioxideUniversa]

Though, how often do one get airCH TK Tsubaki?

netplay?

[hipikachu]

Though, how often do one get airCH TK Tsubaki?

Kishuu>TK Tsubaki perhaps? Though you're definitely right in the fact its not something to rely on at all. Punishing Inferno Divider is probably the next best thing.

[itsme]

Though, how often do one get airCH TK Tsubaki?

Wake up Tsubaki is Hakumen's secret reversal.

Being serious though, I've heard and read a lot of JP players saying that delayed lows on wake up vs. Hakumen is really effective against him in CP since it beats wake up 2D (non-delayed) and TK Hotaru (because the new Hotaru pretty much whiffs anything low profile now) so I guess TK Tsubaki on wake up can land us some great reward if we catch the opponent trying to get too safe with their oki against us. Then again, I guess it would be much safer to just jump out for free rather than chancing on wasting 3 mags and eating damage.

[mAc Chaos]

Air CH Tsubaki is if THEY're in the air though so that would not work. Right. Otherwise it's air Tsubaki by definition.

[Isuna]

Precisily. How often are the opponent in the air, tries to attack you and gets caught by a 19F move?

Wouldn't 19F be way to slow to work against jump mix-ups on wake-up?

Like hipikachu said, I think it can be used to punish a blocked ID.

That and Hazama trying to escape by chain in the corner.

By the way, have anyone confirmed or denied that Zanshin Emma is jump cancelable on block?

[dioxideUniversa]

from what i gathered it seemed to have all of the same properties as a normal enma other than it fatals. i've not seen anyone go out of their way to confirm this fact however

[Isuna]

Didn't it have a much better P1 as well?

If it is jump cancel it is pretty safe even on block... well certainly safer than -19F at least.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Does Enma still have it's projectile invincibility?

[Spark]

Do you mean kishuu(the dash)? Enma(the punch) has never had projectile invincibility.

[BladeOfJustice7]

It was weird when I saw enma, after the kishuu had started to go through bursts, enma kinda seems to have invincibility against projectiles. Is there a reason why kishuu seems to have an easier time going through projectiles this time around? At least for me that is.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Do you mean kishuu(the dash)? Enma(the punch) has never had projectile invincibility.

Yeah, it was Kishuu I was talkin about, my fault.

[dioxideUniversa]

Didn't it have a much better P1 as well?

If it is jump cancel it is pretty safe even on block... well certainly safer than -19F at least.

i'm pretty sure you could get similar damage with a normal enma. the whole reason the enma parry thing is so gratuitous is it lets him get normal combo damage off parries. the parries have a bit higher potential because of the fatal, but i'd guess they have roughly the same proration (frankly tho I can't recall a single enma P1 in any of the videos i've watched, so with a grain of salt...)