[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Sophisticat]

Which EC Hakumen in this thread who netplay haven't I fought yet? I think I am becoming addicted to fighting Hakumen now.

I haven't played you in a long time.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I find it interesting how Chin is the only Hakumen whose skills are good enough for his playstyle to revolve around Kishin/OD. Also his combo and abare is off the charts in this version of BB, though it seems Japanese players are still adjusting to the new combo system.

[mAc Chaos]

What do you mean, good enough to revolve around? Doesn't it help every Hakumen.

[BladeOfJustice7]

It's rare to catch him bursting even if he's under 20-25% health, he usually just saves for Kishin/OD. He usually relies on his fundamentals to catch on a random move for explosive damage through OD combos.

21:42 is when he starts playing here.

11:52

You'll see what I mean after watching these, Hakumen players only use it if they have the chance, but Chin's playstyle REVOLVES around OD. I find it pretty interesting

[mAc Chaos]

Hm... I think I'd rather have the burst.

I see there are some new corner combos at least.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Hm... I think I'd rather have the burst.

I see there are some new corner combos at least.

You're not the only one who thinks that way. It's a very high risk high reward double edged sword playstyle he's using in CP, not many Hakumen's if there are any, who capitalize on Kishin/OD in matches.

But yes, it's the reason I'm looking forward to CP, it's constantly evolving in terms of combo variety and general use of characters. I can't wait for this game.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, a lot of the combos I saw him do were like 6k. 6k didn't seem that much to me to use the OD and all your stars for.

But, the question is, can you do 6k without OD?

[psycofang2]

Well, a lot of the combos I saw him do were like 6k. 6k didn't seem that much to me to use the OD and all your stars for.

But, the question is, can you do 6k without OD?

you can, corner combo + decent amount of stars.

i think i saw 1 off ch 3c mid screen or it was very close.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Well, a lot of the combos I saw him do were like 6k. 6k didn't seem that much to me to use the OD and all your stars for.

But, the question is, can you do 6k without OD?

It's not just doing 6k, it's UNBURSTABLE 6k. There's a difference it puts greater pressure and strain on the opponent's choice to burst or not. If you burst again after a simply OD combo you'll probably have barely any health left, meaning that if you win or lose the match, if you decide to burst it puts Chin at an advantage in the next round since he'll likely recover his burst before you get yours where he can find another opportunity to OD your ass again.

Suppose to decide to save your burst, Chin has a one up on in by winning a round, so now you have to use your burst this round effectively and avoid being caught in another OD combo while trying to take Chin out as his burst is recovering. If he catches you again when his burst is back, it's another OD combo, putting you at a greater disadvantage where you have most likely lost most of your health and your burst. If you decide not to burst you will have to find a way to force your own OD combo on Chin, since he already used up his burst for a second OD combo. This situation you could see in the Hazama match in the second video.

It's a really sick mind game he has going on in CP, there's more layers to it. But it's really hard to beat since it's something I think only he can de due to his skill level as a player to not try to burst. Because this almost win-win playstyle he's rarely beaten save for players that are as good if not stronger (like Goro, Sakamoto, Mitsurugi) than Chin who can outplay him or push him to burst, which means that he's likely down to 25% health or less.

[dioxideUniversa]

it's also worth noting that on a lot of the starters chin grabs 6k off in those videos there is no way you would get anywhere near 6k ever without OD (and a lot of them are midscreen to boot)

[BlackYakuzu94]

It's not just doing 6k, it's UNBURSTABLE 6k. There's a difference it puts greater pressure and strain on the opponent's choice to burst or not. If you burst again after a simply OD combo you'll probably have barely any health left, meaning that if you win or lose the match, if you decide to burst it puts Chin at an advantage in the next round since he'll likely recover his burst before you get yours where he can find another opportunity to OD your ass again.

Suppose to decide to save your burst, Chin has a one up on in by winning a round, so now you have to use your burst this round effectively and avoid being caught in another OD combo while trying to take Chin out as his burst is recovering. If he catches you again when his burst is back, it's another OD combo, putting you at a greater disadvantage where you have most likely lost most of your health and your burst. If you decide not to burst you will have to find a way to force your own OD combo on Chin, since he already used up his burst for a second OD combo. This situation you could see in the Hazama match in the second video.

It's a really sick mind game he has going on in CP, there's more layers to it. But it's really hard to beat since it's something I think only he can de due to his skill level as a player to not try to burst. Because this almost win-win playstyle he's rarely beaten save for players that are as good if not stronger (like Goro, Sakamoto, Mitsurugi) than Chin who can outplay him or push him to burst, which means that he's likely down to 25% health or less.

That's a pretty slick way of thinking about it. It makes the opponent really have to consider their options

[mAc Chaos]

That actually sounds good. Well, I guess it will be easy to land a random 5C or j.2C or something and go into OD.

[BladeOfJustice7]

That actually sounds good. Well, I guess it will be easy to land a random 5C or j.2C or something and go into OD.

Not really, like I said, only Chin does it. Because it means you pretty much have to play immaculate the entire match, since you must avoid bursting.

[mAc Chaos]

No I mean, what's stopping you from just going into an OD combo when you land your first real hit. Unless you mean even with the OD combo, you will need the burst and lose if you do it.

[BladeOfJustice7]

No I mean, what's stopping you from just going into an OD combo when you land your first real hit. Unless you mean even with the OD combo, you will need the burst and lose if you do it.

What I'm saying is, because Chin waits for an opportunity to go into OD and blow you up, he can't rely on his burst, at all. Look at his matches with Goro, Gentaro (he's the last person against Chin in the first video), or Mitsurugi. If he can't catch you with an OD then he's at a disadvantage in the next round, equally if he doesn't kill you he can still lose since he no longer has a burst available and the opponent has their plus or they can also OD and combo Chin since they are also low on health and they'll have at least 60% meter.

Like I said it's a high risk high reward playstyle. But if you can make it work, it is a very powerful mind game.

[Wander]

I think its more of a playstyle preference than anything else, like would you rather use your burst for offensive or defensive purposes? OD is a lot more appealing to me than bursts. I rather do a damaging combo rather than burst and reset the situation into neutral.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I think it also depends on your faith in your neutral/overall gameplay in a match, like I said Chin/Suzume is already incredibly strong enough to follow such a playstyle to such an extreme. Other hakumen players do it, but they don't wait to burst at 25% helath it's usually 50-30% when they decide to burst, example Kakyuu.

[mAc Chaos]

I kind of feel that way with counters. Everybody tries to be conservative with them because it can get you punished, and the damage is not that much in return, but I'm confident I can land them more than the opponent can punish me.

[kirbster]

I dunno, I'd use OD whenever I get a random ass hit (it's called hit confirming), or burst if I'm close to dying. Doesn't sound that complicated to me lol

[mAc Chaos]

Nope. Everything must be a mind game with Hakumen. It is the LAW

[BladeOfJustice7]

I dunno, I'd use OD whenever I get a random ass hit (it's called hit confirming), or burst if I'm close to dying. Doesn't sound that complicated to me lol

Not a lot of Hakumen's do that if you watch them. And usually they burst very early in their matches that are very katame oriented or they'll burst once they lose 30-50% health.

They tend to use OD for a sure-fire simple combo kill,not extensive combos, like the ones you see Chin goes for.

[dioxideUniversa]

could anyone be a hero and do a small write-up for the makoto matchup? between little experience and a video thread that is thoroughly full of holes at this point, local makoto is making me sadness.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I'll leave a reminder for myself, I have experience in the matchup. I'll do it similar to eh-sama in the Ky forums, which is what I did in the Valkenhayn matchup thread.

But only if people liked what I did and want me to do it. If not, if someone can handle it better than me then go for it.

[BladeOfJustice7]

An interesting article I saw that I feel would be useful for my White Voided brethren (and sistren?):

The Power Of Choosing To Do Nothing

Young players calculate everything, a requirement of their relative inexperience. - Samuel Reshevsky

When having an edge, Karpov often marked time and still gained the advantage! I don't know anyone else who could do that, it's incredible. I was always impressed and delighted by this skill. When it looked like it was high time to start a decisive attack, Karpov played a3, h3, and his opponent's position collapsed. - Vladimir Kramnik

In pretty much any game, be it GG, chess, tiddlywinks, or whatever, your chances of making a mistake will go up with the more moves you have to make from non-forced decisions. So for two players of equal skill, if one player is compelled to to make more non-forced decisions than the other player who can opt to pass and simply not have to think, the player making more decisions will tend to make more mistakes, and the player who can pass without consequence will make fewer mistakes and thereby tend to win more often.

A lot of beginning to mid-level players will oftentimes avoid allowing an advantageous situation go to neutral, for fear of allowing the opponent out of the box or giving an opponent a turn. However, if the only decisions the opponent is allowed to make are forced moves, then good players will simply choose the forced move without having to think, be it block, DAA, or whatever. So sometimes, and especially if you are Ky and you have your opponent in the rainbow of sadness, it can be better to simply do nothing or something non-committal and basically pass your turn, and let the opponent do something. If Ky has the opponent in the rainbow of sadness, a lot of those choices presented to the opponent can be rendered to be a mistake.

From a strategy point of view, it's also effective because you don't really have to think as hard as your opponent, which is almost always a good thing:

1) Present your opponent with lots of choices from a myriad of options

2) Make small tactical moves to make most of those choices wrong, like moving in and out of the rainbow of sadness

3) Let the opponent hang himself

Your decisions are easy because you get to pass, whereas your opponent's decisions are hard, because he has to choose to do something among many choices, a lot of which are wrong.

A lot of negative style players will try to enter into these situations as often as possible. One of the big tell tale signs of a good negative style player is when you see lots of situations where he seemingly does nothing or innocuously safe/non-committal moves, and then his opponent suddenly inexplicably commits suicide. What looks like a complete blunder was actually induced psychologically from allowing the opponent to make the wrong decision.

Here is a vid example from 25:08 onwards:

25:09-25:16 - off of a simple block string, since Pot is in the corner and in Ky's rainbow of sadness, Ky passes his turn and just stands there. Pot tries to escape with a suicide dive, which Ky picks off with a 6P without having to think.

25:16-25:31 - simple tactics to put Pot back in the same situation - 2HS abare with the intention to either jump cancel SE if blocked or S/HS to place him back. Once back in, Ky pretty much does a whole bunch of nothing since he has Pot in the rainbow of sadness, Pot again tries to get out, and loses lots of life trying to do so.

25:35-25:44 - Ky just stands there again and passes, Pot does another suicide dive, though Pot FDs the ensuing 6P. Doesn't matter since Pot is back in that situation. Ky essentially passes some more by jumping around in the rainbow of sadness, Pot does a slide head which Ky punishes with air dash.

25:51-26:14 - Ky again pretty much does a whole lot of nothing without really thinking near the rainbow of sadness, Pot tries to do things but gets hit on reaction by Ky. Eventually Pot tries another ill-advised slidehead, which Ky punishes.

Though, pretty much the entire Ky/Pot set has good or hilarious examples of Ky doing nothing and Pot committing suicide in front of Ky.

It largely touches on playing negative which I've been trying to really develop in the last month or so, to really bring out my strengths in both Ky and Hakumen. But this video really made me think of Hakumen players and especially the dreaded Tager matchup. Since Ky vs Potemkin/Johnny is very similar to the Hakumen vs Tager matchup.

I'm just curious about your thoughts on the article, and if it was insightful, I know it certainly was for me too. Gentaro/Purotosu really capitalizes on this playstyle a lot which is why he gives people such a hard time in CP.

[toanenadiz]

It sounds like the best way to play Lambda/Nu.