[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

It sounds like it's just saying to use baiting and conditioning to let the opponent hang themselves.

It takes some time to set that up though.

This kind of reminds me of when I would play Magic. I'd play control decks, which are reactive and passive. Pretty much every single time I actually did something proactive, was the moment I could pinpoint losing.

[toanenadiz]

It isn't really conditioning. It is more putting yourself at a range where it is easy to counter your opponents options and waiting for them to do something. It is like when I stand at that magic distance just outside of Kishuu range. I can whiff punish your Kishuu, back away if you try to walk towards me, stuff your IAD j2C with 5A and your jB with 2C. No conditioning needed there. I just need to stand there and react (and pray the controller does what I want it to do).

[BladeOfJustice7]

It sounds like the best way to play Lambda/Nu.

Yea, which is why I mentioned Gentaro, but I feel this play style can also apply to Hakumen in at least some of his matchups. I find myself playing like this especially against Hakumen.

It takes some time to set that up though.

Not exactly, it's just like toan said, you just need to be at the right range to do things at all times and react to their proactive choices while being at that optimal range.

While Hakumen has a harder time respectively keeping people out than Ky from GG, he has stronger tools for getting up close and punishing his opponents than Ky can. But it is a optional way of playing.

No conditioning needed there. I just need to stand there and react (and pray the controller does what I want it to do).

I swore you play stick lol. But yes you get the point I'm trying to make, forcing your opponent to make proactive choices and reacting to them. Which, in a sense is like "watching them hang themselves".

[mAc Chaos]

So just good control over neutral.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Total control over neutral through passive and reacting to your opponent's proactive choices.

[psycofang2]

the art of doing nothing?

but... i do that anyway.

i usually play in a way where the enemy kills themself with little to no work from my end, unless you respect me then ill move. kinda.

except vs lambda because she can do even less than me and still be at an advantage.

[BladeOfJustice7]

except vs lambda because she can do even less than me and still be at an advantage.

Which is what I'm wondering if there is a way of getting in on her without doing anything, like you know empty jumps and just staying within your range to punish her for trying get in her range. If you guys get what I'm saying.

[mAc Chaos]

You could just slowly force your way in, but that kind of thing tends to give her lots of time to think and move around. You'd have to be careful so she doesn't just teleport past you or run under you.

[BladeOfJustice7]

But that would be her taking a proactive decision which, I believe could be taken advantage of (in theory).

[psycofang2]

But that would be her taking a proactive decision which, I believe could be taken advantage of (in theory).

pretty much though i doubt it will work out too well, her range and certain attacks are just a bit too great to just do nothing about.

also ugh mods trailing me, with their stupid power trips.

get your high and move on.

apparently theres a new rule about using certain words as synonyms.

what...

hey blad elets play later if you read this.

[toanenadiz]

Which is what I'm wondering if there is a way of getting in on her without doing anything, like you know empty jumps and just staying within your range to punish her for trying get in her range. If you guys get what I'm saying.

The problem with that is that Lambda's range is so much greater than Hakumen's. If you can get her near the corner, you might be able to do that. But again, Lambda's range is greater than Hakumen's so if he is within his range, she is within hers. She wouldn't be at her optimal range, but her decisions could easily put Hakumen in a bad position and might be too quick to react to.

What range do you think Hakumen would want to be at?

[BladeOfJustice7]

pretty much though i doubt it will work out too well, her range and certain attacks are just a bit too great to just do nothing about.

also ugh mods trailing me, with their stupid power trips.

get your high and move on.

apparently theres a new rule about using certain words as synonyms.

what...

hey blad elets play later if you read this.

In ottawa for the weekend so you'll have to ask me some other time in the week.

The problem with that is that Lambda's range is so much greater than Hakumen's. If you can get her near the corner, you might be able to do that. But again, Lambda's range is greater than Hakumen's so if he is within his range, she is within hers. She wouldn't be at her optimal range, but her decisions could easily put Hakumen in a bad position and might be too quick to react to.

What range do you think Hakumen would want to be at?

Max range of 5c? Though I do hear what you're saying though. Hakumen needs to be more assertive in such a matchup since lambda gains more from being passive. But I still do feel you can be more passive and your proactive choices, like more empty jump ins and etc.

[mAc Chaos]

5C range was what I was thinking too. But all she has to do is backdash.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Yea but if she's in the corner that's not necessarily the case.

[mAc Chaos]

Ah in that case, gotta be right up in her grill.

[dioxideUniversa]

anyone around this evening for matches? boredoooooo.

[mAc Chaos]

I would if you were on XBL.

[dioxideUniversa]

i will have xbox access one of these days. until i get my stick dual modded, tho, there isn't going to be a lot of reason to

[mAc Chaos]

Get it modded!!! Or find someone who has one and borrow it for like a day, then get on for the Hakufest of a lifetime.

Also:

could anyone be a hero and do a small write-up for the makoto matchup? between little experience and a video thread that is thoroughly full of holes at this point, local makoto is making me sadness.

OK, so it's been a long time since I seriously delved into the matchup, but my body still remembers a thing or two from the matches I'd play with Omni and Nini Heart among others in CS1 and 2. And then there's Gold in EX but it's not as brutal since she doesn't have touch of death anymore.

It is basically a footsies match, like against Ragna.

Your footsies moves are 3C, 2B, 5A, 6A, 5B and 5C. Don't use 4C, she will airdash over it or 3C under it and body you every time. Her 6C is pretty strong too since it throws her forward, so she can start it from a safe range and hit you out of your attack. It's practically made to destroy 4C.

Use 3C to counter her attempts to run in. 5C is a good way to anti air her. It depends on the angle she tries to get in. 5A isn't so good an anti air because all of her air to ground normals have a big enough hit box that you will just eat a counter hit. So you want 6A, or 5C. 5B is a good way to poke when you're not using 3C, since unlike 4C it doesn't let you get counterhit easily and it has a deceptive range.

If you want to play the matchup by the book, then you basically have to keep her at arm's length and chisel away at her life as she tries to get in.

You can use Hotaru to beat her DP. Watch out though, Makoto's have a trick where they can slide forward just a teensy bit on wakeup, then do a delayed DP and do Hotaru. So if they start doing that, catch them out of it with 2B until they stop. You can also space 2B at max range to beat her DP, but I can never get that in the heat of a match. I'd rather just Hotaru.

Use counters against her orbs on wakeup, but watch out because she can set it up so your counter will whiff and she can come in with a jump in right after. But it's still worth it to counter the orb anyway.

Don't bother anti airing her j.2C, the angle is too awkward, just counter it.

Her anti air is strong, don't challenge it. Even on trade she can combo.

When in doubt, go for low pokes because it beats both her parry and 3C.

If you trust your reflexes, then block during her pressure and counter her 6B or 2C. Otherwise block until she gets pushed out, then poke her on her way back in or jump out.

If she does any D attacks and you block them, that's the end of her pressure. You should be able to punish it too.

Her damage isn't as ridiculous as it used to be, so you can afford to be more aggressive against her in EX. In CS1 and 2 I would back off even when I had the advantage because I didn't want to get randomly 2A'd into 7k. But here you will have a lot of stars, and can do some good damage, so don't feel afraid to go in hard on her once you gain the advantage. You can neutralize her DP so you can get her to block and then from there it's Haku Time.

Oh yeah, and her astral is actually good as a reversal.

Good luck. If you have any questions just ask. If any Makotos see anything to correct or add feel free to say so too.

Edited June 3, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[mAc Chaos]

Hakumen VS Makoto

General Strategy

This is mostly a footsies match. It's like fighting Ragna. You'll spend lots of time jousting at neutral, until one of you screws up and gets thrown into the corner. You'll want to stay back and chisel away at her health as she attempts to get in. Then, when you get a knockdown, you can use all the stars you stored up to go in hard. Like fighting Noel, Makoto has high mobility, and has moves that will let her completely avoid yours, like her 3C.

You want to either be in her face on offense, or have her at just 5B and 3C range.

Long Range

Just sit tight and gain stars. She can't do anything from long range. She might try to throw orbs, but just cut them.

Mid Range

This is where the meat of the matchup occurs. In fact, there are two slightly different mid ranges that give either party the advantage. If she's in Haku 3C or 5B range, then you have the advantage. But if she's just outside it, she has the advantage because she is more mobile and will be able to quickly get in if she makes you whiff a move or makes the right read. A lot of Makotos will hover just around this range. At this range it will come down to guessing and who baits what.

Kishuu Enma will go through her 6C and 5B.

She will try to get in with a combination of either 3C, IAD j.C, or slowly working her way in. She can also use 6C, which throws Makoto forward, to initiate an attack from outside your range and hit you.

Zone and play footsies until you gain knockdown, then go in on her.

Close Range

Haku on Defense

If you're on wakeup and she does the orb, just counter it. Makoto has a setup where she can do the orb and dodge your counter, but it's still worth doing because that just puts her back where she started. If she tries this, use 6D instead of 2D as it is more likely to catch her.

If you feel confident of your reflexes, block out her pressure until she goes for 6B or 2C, then counter. Otherwise, wait until she gets pushed out, then poke out with 2A or jump out to give yourself space.

If she does j.2C, don't try to anti air it, either air throw or counter with 5D.

If you block any of her D moves, then that's the end of her pressure. You can punish them.

Haku on Offense

Hotaru will beat her DP, and 2B will beat it as well with proper spacing.

Use lows to beat her parry.

Watch out, she can punish your 6B with her fastest 5A if she IBs it.

Your Best Tools

3C: Beats her parry and her own 3C, stops aggressive attempts to get in.

5B: Much faster and safer to poke with than 4C, but still has a deceptively long range.

2B: Beats her DP, has long reach, is fast and safe.

5C: A lot of Makoto's jump ins have hitboxes that are too big to hit with 5A, and with spacing that interferes with 6A. 5C will beat these, but you have to do it a little early.

5A: Useful as a standard anti air, but loses to her jump ins. Use it to catch attempts to jump out, rather than defense.

6A: If she just jumps right at you, 6A her. But her j.2C will give you a hard time.

5D: A lot of her moves will put her back in charge if you block them, or are hard to beat, like j.2C. Use 5D to counter it instead.

Air Throw: Another good counter to j.2C.

Hotaru: Beats her DP outright, but watch out, she can delay it slightly to beat Hotaru. If she does that, catch her out of it with 2B until she stops.

Kishuu: It will go through her 6C and 5B.

Reversals

Has a DP?

Yes. Her DP has invincibility, but you can beat it with Hotaru. However, she can slightly delay it to beat Hotaru instead. To counter this, catch her with 2B until she stops.

Alternatively, a well spaced 2B can beat the DP too.

Her astral is also a good reversal that will either clash or beat Hotaru. If you smell it coming, then just block or counter / Yukikaze it instead.

Things To Look Out For

Haku 6B gets punished on IB.

Makoto 3C will cause a lot of moves to whiff.

Her parry beats non-low attacks and is dangerous against jump ins. On that note, be careful against her 6A, it can combo even on trade.

A lot of Makotos like to use that giant punch distortion to punish whiffs from full screen. Be careful what you throw out when she has 50 heat.

all this typing

why

Edited June 3, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[dioxideUniversa]

don't hurt yourself mac

thank you though! one question--i never really see anyone write about Asteroid Vision in makoto writeups, and while I'm not really afraid of it at neutral, is there anything i should know about it in pressure (especially the corner?) it seems to not have many holes in it / easy to repeat pressure with it and blocking through it seems to irrationally make me freak out.

[BladeOfJustice7]

thorough matchup walkthrough

Wow this is what I was talking about mAc, good shit.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Finger Torturing Goodness

This should probably be in the Haku vs Makoto thread. That thread could use some love.

The only thing in addition to that that I think needs mentioning is Asteroid Visions stuff.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Errol]

If she's in Haku 3C or 5B range, then you have the advantage. But if she's just outside it, she has the advantage because she is more mobile and will be able to quickly get in if she makes you whiff a move or makes the right read. A lot of Makotos will hover just around this range. At this range it will come down to guessing and who baits what.

IMO..

When she's out of 3c range you can hit 4c. Not charged, just plain 4c. predictable and you can get hit by Makoto's 3c, but only if you're predictable. Overall the risk reward on Makoto using 3c is strongly against her (the same is true of j2c), against any character, but especially in this matchup. Any time hovering leads to your advantage due to passive meter gain. so the match up does play out with a lot of hovering and baiting. Basically, trying to run in from outside of 4c range to just outside of 3c range and catch a 3c or 5c whiff.

[Bibiquadium]

Well, Astroid Vision is just a long flowchart, its hard to write on paper. I believe it comes with matchup exp. I wouldn't go and say "Don't Hotaru she can 214A~D into Fatal Counter combo of death." Since at this point its all about guessing and adapting etc. And Makoto shouldn't be in the 3C range to begin with, she has to wait for a good whiff or a hole in Haku's pressure and take full advantage of it.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Bibiquadium