[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

The real issue is going to be getting them in the corner while still having enough stars do to the 5k combos. In other words, 6 stars or so. But we're going to need to spend a bunch midscreen to get them there, and this time the corner carry combos are pretty much gone.

Then again maybe the Tsubaki combo isn't corner only.

Edited November 8, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[WolfCrimson]

OR you can jC instead of j2c agito. It won't be as ridiculously good as what we have now, though, but it'll be ok i guess. Plus, increased hop speed.

[dioxideUniversa]

Then again maybe the Tsubaki combo isn't corner only.

"Tsubaki>Hotari also goes into about 5000 in corner, 4000 midscreen,"

not fantastic but it's damage. it also sounds like meter will be in even greater abundance anyway

re: j.C vs. j.2c agito: i always felt like there should be a tradeoff in your combos anyway. the game and decisions are more interesting when you have to choose between damage and corner carry. it doesn't sound like it will be terribly imbalanced.

[Kriegdrache]

I cant wait to see OD Yukikaze in motion.

Doing consecutive hops makes Hakumen move at an incredible speed. If you see a Hakumen mashing backdash it's definitely fast enough to make you laugh.

Hahaha

[BladeOfJustice7]

The enma combo does the same or more than the renka kishuu combo? Seems pointless to use renka in that case, unless you want it to be more burst safe?

It seems that way, had to reread that post a couple of times to see what you're talking about.

Do we necessarily have to end combos with agito? Sounds like a waste of stars if you ask me. If you have enough time to tk agito after 2c (from my understanding), couldn't you do 2c>jb>j2a>jc?

[mAc Chaos]

Doesn't j.2A hit them up higher now?

Maybe Agito lets you set up some poor form of oki.

[itsme]

From what I remember from the jbbs, j2A/C ender drops Haku too fast so it lets the opponent free of Haku pressure while the Agito ender is for the extra damage as well as for oki midscreen. I really think it's a nice improvement to his combo since in CT/CS1, Tsubaki ender was not worth the meter as an ender aside from going for the kill/needed damage and in CS2/CSE there were no proper midscreen ender where you could put the opponent back into his pressure (e.g. from stuff like your D starters/poor corner carry combos). From what I read and predict, I think Hakus will be using the Agito ender when they have the meter or during OD to keep the opponent under pressure or use the familiar jC ender if they want some extra breathing space (such as vs Arakune during curse, time stalling) or if they want time to build more meter. I honestly thought it was a waste of meter too at first but I can honestly see how they want it to work as part of the "new" Haku; though I'm still skeptical outside of theoryfighting until I actually get to play the game.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Doesn't j.2A hit them up higher now?

But it's jump cancellable, like pretty much everything else now.

Maybe Agito lets you set up some poor form of oki.

Lmao.

From what I remember from the jbbs, j2A/C ender drops Haku too fast so it lets the opponent free of Haku pressure while the Agito ender is for the extra damage as well as for oki midscreen. I really think it's a nice improvement to his combo since in CT/CS1, Tsubaki ender was not worth the meter as an ender aside from going for the kill/needed damage and in CS2/CSE there were no proper midscreen ender where you could put the opponent back into his pressure (e.g. from stuff like your D starters/poor corner carry combos). From what I read and predict, I think Hakus will be using the Agito ender when they have the meter or during OD to keep the opponent under pressure or use the familiar jC ender if they want some extra breathing space (such as vs Arakune during curse, time stalling) or if they want time to build more meter. I honestly thought it was a waste of meter too at first but I can honestly see how they want it to work as part of the "new" Haku; though I'm still skeptical outside of theoryfighting until I actually get to play the game.

This is very true, I forgot how virtually nonexistent our oki is, especially after midscreen combos.

They're going to have to give us better pressure tools though, like a comboable 6b. It doesn't necessarily need to lead to 3-4k, but I would be fine with 2k or so off a regular 6b.

Edited November 12, 2012 by BladeOfJustice7

[itsme]

Yeah, that's the reason why I'm skeptical in practice since we don't know how much we can do after the ender itself. Regarding 6B, there are bunch of inconsistencies for information of the new 6B being comboable or not, considering people are reporting to be unable to combo from it whereas others are saying 5A/2A can make it in time or even stuff like 2C being able to red beat on counter hit.

[mAc Chaos]

I think it can combo on CH.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Same here, but if they're making us waste stars for oki. We should have good oki tools, like a comboable 6b. I was fine with how 6b was before since it was only really useful for making your opponent quick tech and to keep them guessing to some level even if you only had 2 stars or less.

[Schneider-X]

Some neatly summarized info for CP Hakumen

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?14675-BBCP-System-Changes-Movelist-Translations-and-Loketest-Information-Anything-Else-INFRACTION&p=1413754&viewfull=1#post1413754

[Isuna]

I think one guy mentioned that 6B chained to 2A always and thought maybe it would be able to be used in combos, but most other people seem to say otherwise.

Added some more stuff to the changes thread;

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?14675-BBCP-System-Changes-Movelist-Translations-and-Loketest-Information-Anything-Else-INFRACTION&p=1414131&viewfull=1#post1414131

Seems like they're going haywire on trying to balance him out with the changes they have already made.

I have a question for you guys who have played a lot of Hakumen, do you like these changes?

I don't mean particuary nerfs or buffs or so, but how he is changing?

To me, it seems like they are trying to make him more viable midscreen, increasing combo options, mix-up and cross-up options, at the expense of damage/magatama and his especially defence.

I mean, I'm a conservative dick (and also a noob), I certainly don't like 95% of the changes they've made to him, but you guys who have been playing him for a much longer time, do you think he is moving in the right direction? Is it time to spice it up by changing how he plays?

[Spark]

So far the only thing that really bothers me is 2A > throw whiffing, which means no more tick throws/TRM setups or at least requires you to walk forward a bit after 2Aing. Though maybe people with level 0 2As will still be able to tick throw fine since the push back will be less. I like the back dash change, it always seemed pretty useless since it wasn't invincible or quick, at least now it's quick. The j.2A stuff is kind of weird, since the air dash stuff has been his staple combo forever now, so that change will take some getting used to.

Not sure how I feel about everything else. Though as long as his damage isn't CS2 damage I think it'll be fine. On another note I'm glad they decided not to change the input of any of his moves in between games again.

[mAc Chaos]

His CS2 damage wasn't bad. I mean, he got decent damage in the corner and he had some of those longer full screen carry combos, although I never used them.

[dioxideUniversa]

I just read the 2A>Throw whiff. Yuck :\

As for the changes, some of them sound okay. I do not like the 2a change however as it really hurts his throw mixup. I think that's the only thing from the loktest I've really revulsed at so far.

I worry mostly about his already lackluster mixup, but beyond that not a lot concerns me deeply.

Edited November 13, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[BladeOfJustice7]

So far the only thing that really bothers me is 2A > throw whiffing, which means no more tick throws/TRM setups or at least requires you to walk forward a bit after 2Aing. Though maybe people with level 0 2As will still be able to tick throw fine since the push back will be less. I like the back dash change, it always seemed pretty useless since it wasn't invincible or quick, at least now it's quick. The j.2A stuff is kind of weird, since the air dash stuff has been his staple combo forever now, so that change will take some getting used to.

Pretty much what he says. If they make sure he can still get explosive damage off his magatama collection, give him a comboable 6b (he needs to actually have mixup options if you intend on giving him oki after combos), and AT LEAST make it hard to block his counters I'll be fine.

On another note I'm glad they decided not to change the input of any of his moves in between games again.

The onyl reason they did that was because many of his inputs collided with one another.

CT: Accidently going guren instead of kishuu/enma. Accidently doing renka instead of wake up tk hotaru.

CS1: Still accidently doing wake renka isntead of wake up tk hotaru.

Hence the input changes, I'm honestly glad they fixed all of those things with each iteration of the game.

His CS2 damage wasn't bad. I mean, he got decent damage in the corner and he had some of those longer full screen carry combos, although I never used them.

Compared to every other version of Hakumen, cs2 was the least damaging. A fucking squirrel genki girl hit twice as hard as him anywhere on the screen.

I just read the 2A>Throw whiff. Yuck :\

As for the changes, some of them sound okay. I do not like the 2a change however as it really hurts his throw mixup. I think that's the only thing from the loktest I've really revulsed at so far.

I worry mostly about his already lackluster mixup, but beyond that not a lot concerns me deeply.

Are you referring to 2b or 2a here? Because from my understanding it's 2b that got nerfed the most and 2a got a slight buff in terms of gattlings :/

I don't like what they've done mostly to his counters, making it safer for the opponent to throw things out, especially Carl/Relius. Nerfing Akumetsu, even though it was already nigh useless and EXTREMELY costly to use. Was that really necessary ArcSys? But I like how they're trying to change his combo system, yes air dash for everything has been fun. But it woudl be nice for a new combo system in a new game, something different for once. It would be redundant to be doing the same combos for the 3rd/4th year now.

As long as they keep his combos meter efficient as all.

[dioxideUniversa]

Sorry, I was talking about TRM when I mentioned 2a. I should've said "throw nerf," but it breaks Hakumen's ability to use 2a to do TRM mixups.

[itsme]

^Because of the throw range nerf (possibly for all characters), 2A>throw doesn't connect anymore like before.

I'll probably cope and play the game just like I did during CS2, though I think I have a bit more hope than before since this is a new game and none of us are sure how the game will go yet.

I'm okay with the blockable drives as long as if Haku is still plus on block, though I'm still irked that 6D looks like it'll stick to the weird start up for now.

[mAc Chaos]

god

my tick throws gone

what the fuck

[BladeOfJustice7]

though I'm still irked that 6D looks like it'll stick to the weird start up for now.

I forgot to mention that. THAT needs to go, so what now I need to block herp derp instant overheads from rachel or anyone else because he's such a big dude? Get the fuck outta here.

[Isuna]

I (beginner!) did try Hakumen (once!) at the loketest today.

As I am a D-pad player who haven't played the game for 7 months, I'll leave you to guess how good I am with the stick.

My thoughts:

* Agito surprised me positively, it was so fast and had great downward range

* The dashes did indeed seem faster

* I tried only once, but couldn't do 6B > 2A

* I've heard that 6D is supposedly comboable, but they tech way to early for jump J2C

* Hotaru clashed with one of Azrael's "dash attacks"

* Didn't they change Renkas input so that it would be easier to TK Hotaru? Why did they put Agito on the same as Gurren?

[WolfCrimson]

Agito is aerial, gurren is not. And there's no reason to TK Agito, while Hotaru is Haku's reversal.

[Isuna]

You can special cancel jump start-up right? Meaning that 2147A will give you Gurren, but 214(4F)7A will give you Agito.

Though you are right about the, shall we say, limited uses of TK Agito.

[WolfCrimson]

You can special cancel jump start-up right? Meaning that 2147A will give you Gurren, but 214(4F)7A will give you Agito.

Though you are right about the, shall we say, limited uses of TK Agito.

Yeah, you can special cancel jump start-up.