[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[itsme]

Actually, after a short thought, I wonder if Azrael's single weakpoint DD "unblockables" are just fancy for "overhead" or "low".

[Wander]

about yukikaze, would it counter a single weakpoint DD unblockable...

[BladeOfJustice7]

no, i am not saying Isuna's a bitch. as stated, some of his comments rub me the wrong way and i opted to offer insight rather than burn him for it.

except for the last one anyway

So you're saying you're a girl, right? I think that's the real question on everyone's mind, and not so much Hakumen.

"Eb, with the hard hitting questions on dustloop"

AHA, so you ARE a girl.

That;s what I'm getting too.

Actually, after a short thought, I wonder if Azrael's single weakpoint DD "unblockables" are just fancy for "overhead" or "low".

about yukikaze, would it counter a single weakpoint DD unblockable...

Taken from the Azrael forums (again):

ways to guard Black Hawk Stinger:

With upper weakpoint

Standing:×

Crouching:○

Air barrier:○

With lower weakpoint

Standing:○

Crouching:×

Air barrier:○

Both weakpoints

Standing:×

Crouching:×

Air Barrier:○

236236D after a guarded 5C seems to be the most realistic way to land it.

My opponent told me that he couldn't use hakumens counter between the 5C and DD.

So counter assault and burst are probably the only ways out after a normally blocked 5C. Don't know about instant guard.

Also weakpoints didn't disappear even if it hits (unlike most other drive attacks)

Combined with Azraels Overdrive or Scud Punishment this could be pretty strong.

This matchup has my curiosity the most, personally. Followed by Bullet and then Izayoi.

[Kriegdrache]

Yeah, Im most curious about the Azrael MU too. It seems like it could be a lot of fun tbh.

[dioxideUniversa]

yes

This matchup has my curiosity the most, personally. Followed by Bullet and then Izayoi.

in before most her ranged stuff is cuttable

[mAc Chaos]

yes

easily the biggest haku CP news yet

[Isuna]

For one, Hakumen's combos at the core have been basically unchanged since CT. He is one of only a few characters who have gotten such treatment as it is typically pretty standard fare for a character's combos to change inbetween versions. (...) There's nothing saying that once a version is over (...) that they will not be changed ever again, as others said.

I did not that to be honest, and when you put it that way, it makes sense.

[pesonal preference]However, I love the J2A dash J2A, and whatever happens in the future, if they make the move away from it I just feel the chances of ever getting it back, is quite slim. [/personal preference]

Hakumen did not always have godlike corner carry and it won't kill any Hakumen players to throw back to that gameplay.

But whatever combo that has J2A dash J2A must have more combo carry than jump cancel combos right? Well, I guess he will get corner carry from Hotaru, but other than that, will he have any corner carry? (asking, not implying there isn't)

Hakumen also has forever to hitconfirm a lot of his attacks, especially j.B. Changes in CP's frame data reflects this.

Well, EX JB is called the Magic JB or Devil JB for a reason. XD

For the same reasons you find CP Hakumen unappealing, others (me for instance) can find CP Hakumen appealing because his new combos look more like CT juggle combos and we're actually getting something new and interesting to do in the corner.

Oh, this is what I wanted to hear. I haven't actually read anyone saying "new combos looks fun".

Regardless of my level of play, I haven't ever put down time to fighting game, so I wouldn't know whether it is fun/interesting to have your staple combos changed after a couple of years.

For most of us, there are far more to a character than just combos.

[BladeOfJustice7]

easily the biggest haku CP news yet

Honestly.

Yeah, Im most curious about the Azrael MU too. It seems like it could be a lot of fun tbh.

A semi slow moving character, that's NOT Tager, and appearantly is a heavy hitter like us? And he seems pretty badass and will probably have an intro with Hakumen, so it's kinda hard not to look forward to seeing it pan out as the game develops.

yes

My mind is blown.

All this time I thought you were a dude because I've yet to meet a girl who even LIKES hakumen let alone main him.

in before most her ranged stuff is cuttable

lol this.

Now that we've cleared up the mystery of dioxide, I hope I can count on you on for helping me find videos in the CP thread. mAc, don't forget to make the matchup threads, I don't know when's a good time to make them, but just have them in mind is all. Let's actually make these Hakumen threads less dead and boring minna-san :D

[WolfCrimson]

Alright, we have Hakuwomen!

If the hop speed change sticks, Haku should be classified as a fast character.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Why would he?

[itsme]

Because Tsubaki is the fastest overhead ever, that's why.

[Mightfo]

I would say that run dash and high combo rate are amongst the most important factors whether you can find potential or not.

combo rate has very little to do *by itself* with how good a chara's combos are, combo rate is usually relative to a chara's combo tools and damage per hit as opposed to some indicator of absolute combo strength. tager still has a very low combo rate but has fucking insane combos in bbcse for example.

carl and human valk do way more than fine without a run. haku has done fine without it in most games and will continue to.

ultimately, you cant simplify neutral/pressure/combos with "do they have a run" and "is their combo rate high" (although yes, part of why haku pressure isnt good is due to lack of a run). those aren't really the primary questions to wonder about.

nobody knows shit about how their combos are going to be until like months after launch, so unless his neutral gets nerfed significantly or pressure gets gimped completely(i could see the throw range nerf that was in one of the location tests for everyone doing that...so pay attention to if throw range is still nerfed in the "final" version!) nobody really has the capacity to speculate *meaningfully* about his tier

What was the Litchi players so afraid of, and what happened after the release?

iirc some of her key combo stuff was removed in ct->cs1(related to sweep?) in one of the location tests and iirc many players freaked the fuck out

but then she ended up being absurdly strong combo wise in cs1

[Fluck]

Haku can't have a dash-type run because he is like plus on block for everything. You'd never be able to stop blocking him.

[mAc Chaos]

^That's basically Makoto lol

I don't even want him to run. I like his hop.

[Mightfo]

Haku can't have a dash-type run because he is like plus on block for everything. You'd never be able to stop blocking him.

that's pretty flawed logic. the pushback on stuff like 214a and 236b are pretty sizable.(and arent THAT + on block) you would just have to make more serious guesses about hitting buttons vs letting him continue pressure. ralf in kof13 has a run and a very + frame special to cancel into, but that doesnt mean you are "never able to stop blocking him".

[Fluck]

Yeah, but 5B is +0, 2A is +1, and 2B is +2. 6A is +0 with the added benefit of closing distance. So he has a crazy number of places where he can reset pressure in his blockstrings, and he doesn't even necessarily have to spend meter. Obviously 'you can't stop blocking him' is an exaggeration, but his pressure becomes so strong that guessing/mashing is heavily against your favour if he has a run.

Don't forget that in this game, majority of the cast doesn't have DP as a defensive option unless they have meter.

[itsme]

What if his normals are like that because he can't dash.

[mAc Chaos]

His normals are good but they're not even that good. I mean I always felt under more pressure when Makoto was hitting me. Blocking just a 2A felt like getting hit by a sledgehammer. With Hakumen you can easily disrespect his pressure and he's going to have trouble. Pressure has never been his greatest asset.

Then again, I always can pressure fine, but I feel like that's more because I found ways around people's attempts to get out of pressure than the character having as good pressure tools as characters like Ragna and Jin. But people that know when to mash out also give me the hardest time. Or that just give 0 fucks. I end up having to be too careful.

[Fluck]

What if his normals are like that because he can't dash.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make, lol.

@Mac Yeah, Haku's current pressure isn't that great. I'm trying to say that it will be too good if he has a run type dash, however.

[StarGazer]

Makoto's 5A (which is 5 Frames fast, and have 2+ Adv on block) can hit Haku even when he is crouching.

[Mightfo]

Yeah, but 5B is +0, 2A is +1, and 2B is +2. 6A is +0 with the added benefit of closing distance. So he has a crazy number of places where he can reset pressure in his blockstrings, and he doesn't even necessarily have to spend meter. Obviously 'you can't stop blocking him' is an exaggeration, but his pressure becomes so strong that guessing/mashing is heavily against your favour if he has a run.

Don't forget that in this game, majority of the cast doesn't have DP as a defensive option unless they have meter.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Mightfo

[Fluck]

The difference is that if you run in after a negative move, and the opponent hits a button, you'll get hit. That's why characters like Ragna have unsafe pressure. Haku with a run doesn't care about that, he can and will run in off almost anything and win/trade unless you have a DP. There's a reason many moves that are plus/even on block like Jin's 5B, Noel's 2C, Litchi's 6D, and even Haku's Renka are multi-hit moves - so that they're easier to IB and reduce frame advantage, but that doesn't apply to Haku normals obviously. So once he's in, he can stay in much more easily than other characters with a run. And with Haku's j.B and other tools like Kishuu, he can get in if he wants.

[Mightfo]

The difference is that if you run in after a negative move, and the opponent hits a button, you'll get hit.

This also applies to running after an even move or, IIRC, a move that is only +1 because of minimum run. IIRC it takes +2 to make an actual frametrap with run jabs. Plus, that is assuming that they are absolutely fucking perfect with their dash poke to make it an actual frame trap, and it is much easier to just use 5f button buffer to jab when you expect they're going to run. Yes, the defender has to guess to hit you out of attempting to restart pressure, but the same applies for other mixups which I noted before which hakumen is worse at.

The difference is that if you run in after a negative move, and the opponent hits a button, you'll get hit. That's why characters like Ragna have unsafe pressure.

no, ragna has "unsafe pressure" because gauntlet is unsafe, dash cancel is lol, dead spike isnt fantastic for continuing pressure due to instant block/good dps/the pushback, etc. he doesnt really have good ways to recycle pressure off heavy strings without meter.

Haku with a run doesn't care about that, he can and will run in off almost anything and win/trade unless you have a DP.

"run in off almost anything and win/trade"

what the hell are you talking about? the only move he has that is more than +1 is 2b. that's it. and that has a higher attack level which means pushback from barrier would be pretty effective against it, and it is low to the ground, so jumping would work against that.

So once he's in, he can stay in much more easily than other characters with a run. And with Haku's j.B and other tools like Kishuu, he can get in if he wants.

except he cant for reasons i already established. 6a and 5b being even doesnt mean shit for dashing after. 2a being +1 means little.(see: noel 2a run, litchi 2a run, etc. takes the same risk of "what if they guess my pressure restart?" just like other things i noted earlier) so the absolutely only normal that is exceptional in this regard is 2b. i could see well executed 2b run 2a being nice but i am pretty sure barrier and jump would deal well with that, and hey, it would just mean he'd have real ability to make someone scared of just blocking him, which would make having lower damage or whatever fairer.

again, crucial difference between, say, litchi 5a run 5a frametrap silliness vs tall characters and haku doing pressure with a theoretical run- haku's 2a and 2b are low to the ground. you cant jump between litchi 5a run 5a normally, but you could jump out of haku 2a 2b run 2a pressure, just like you can jump out between litchi 2aaa link(no run) 2a even if you barrier that third 2a(making it +2, like haku 2b.)

frame data does not exist in a vacuum outside of hitboxes and universal tools such as barrier. so yeah, 2b is the only normal of hakumen that would seem a bit exceptional *in this game* for a character with a run, and it wouldnt be broken.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Mightfo

[TheBossGiga]

(Thinking)

If haku had a standard dash his neutral game would be straight up disgusting. His ability to keep you blocking would definitely go up as well but not by much because he doesnt have that many normal gatlings.. he wouldn't be much scarier to block against though because he wouldn't be able to hop tsubaki/hotaru... he could always just TK em though but then he wouldn't be able to extend their ranges and they so they wouldn't be as effective to use. He can already sort of emulate a somewhat safer dash pressure game with kishuu after any normal or special at the cost of a star. Then again he wouldn't be forced to spend that star on moves like 5a 2a 5b 2b 6a if he hit far because the opponent would have to commit to mashing out and jumping out would be much scarier to do due to dash 5a being air unblockable but 5a whiffs crouching so if they do a low attack he would eat a CH..... while currently he's able to take care of both hitting buttons and jumping away currently after any of those normal with hop hotaru and if their scared of that then u could get that godly fast tsubaki off or a throw. his neutral would be ultra rape though.... (done thinking)

I kinda feel like haku's hop works for him. imo his pressure may be better off with it.

However If haku had a run his neutral would be stupid

[Fluck]

You can buffer dash jabs and lose no frames. At most you only lose one frame, otherwise Ragna would not be able to do dash 5A after 22C in FC combos, however I am sure that you don't lose any frames at all.

I don't get your point on Ragna's pressure. It's no different from what I'm saying. He has no safe ways to reset pressure, dashing in after a minus move is one of those unsafe ways.