[CS1] Noel Beginner Questions: You Gotta Start Somewhere

[Sahgren]

Just be certain to keep changing up your drive strings if they keep blocking it (being it stop and reload or using different attacks). Drive isn't safe to begin with, being predictable only makes it worse.

[dragontamer]

What can you do off a blocked 5D? Are there any safe ways of pursuing the drive chain as a blockstring, or should you try to end it with 4D, 5B?, optic barrel A ?

While I'm asking, can you do anything off non-counterhit 5C? Or are you just stuck back into neutral game?

I agree with the others. 5D -> Reload is awesome if you are properly spaced. Noel takes a massive step back: so much so that you can bait Inferno Dividers with 5D -> Reload. (well... you gotta hit them with the tip of 5D, but its definitely worth it when you pull it off. Unfortunately, I don't think that the better Ragnas are gonna fall for it).

Aside from that, here's your options:

1. 5D -> d.5A -- Solid on normal block. Unfortunately, its a dead end after d.5A. If you're too close to "step back", its a decent option to try and screw up the timing of your opponent's reversal. 5D -> d.5A -> (delay) -> 623D if you wanna go "all in" with "screw up your opponent's reversal timing and follow it up with a frame-trap" strategy.

2. 5D -> d.5B -> 4 frame hole on normal block. So they can't jab you out of it on normal block. d.5B has a lot of blockstun as well, so it leaves some options. d.5B -> d.6A -> d.5B is a decent pressure string against people without reversals. Reversals completely screw you however.

3. Assault Through -> If you're gonna get hit anyway, might as well throw something out there. >_<

4. 5D -> 623D -> Rapid -- Hey, if you're gonna rapid to get out of there, you might as well take a primer while you're at it. 5D -> 623D is solid even on instant block. Obviously, very painful if you don't have heat.

Really, I suggest only using 5D when your opponent is gonna get hit. I don't suggest it as pressure at all. I mean, aside from option 4, all of the above can be defeated by instant-blocking -> Reversal.

Edited November 16, 2010 by dragontamer

[LunaKage]

3. Assault Through -> If you're gonna get hit anyway, might as well throw something out there. >_<

4. 5D -> 623D -> Rapid -- Hey, if you're gonna rapid to get out of there, you might as well take a primer while you're at it. 5D -> 623D is solid even on instant block. Obviously, very painful if you don't have heat.

3. I find myself using this tactic as well, but if they don't hit you out of Assault Through, they will either block it or get hit by it, if they block, you can rapid and continue pressure, if you don't rapid at least you take a primer. Also note that assault through can be followed up with a combo if it hits them in the air as a counter hit, I usually 66C > j.D > stuff, and get 3k with no meter, Air CH with Assault Through is rare though, but its always good to know how to follow up if you ever get the chance.

4. I love this tactic, Rapid spring raid and airdash away, you may have a chance to catch your opponent off guard if you instead 623D > Rapid > falling B/C, its risky, but it has won me matches against opponents who were a little to quick to punish Spring Raid.

[TransientFaith]

Ohhh thanks. Gotta try some of these things, sounds like fun.

Just be certain to keep changing up your drive strings if they keep blocking it (being it stop and reload or using different attacks). Drive isn't safe to begin with, being predictable only makes it worse.

Yeah, nothing as "fun" as having your combo baited/blocked every time you don't psychic read and get in that first hit

[MiraclePizza]

I mean, aside from option 4, all of the above can be defeated by instant-blocking -> Reversal.

This is where 5D -> d.4D comes in depending on spacing and character.

Vs Ragna: Will always dodge Inferno Divider but will also always clash, except for when he does the fastest possible IB -> DP which is when you will actually CH him with d.4D. IB into D Inferno Divider will punish you at a good range on IB though, so I guess watch out for that...? Carnage scissors wins hardcore.

Vs Litchi: If Litchi IBs your 5D at very close range her DP will hit your d.4D. Otherwise you will dodge it. Ryuuisou will rape you for free though, but I guess you can always try to bait it with Assault Through.

Vs Jin: You will dodge A and C DP and will clash B and D DP. Also dodges arrow super. If he reads your d.4D he can just ice wave super.

Vs Hazama: Don't do it because Hotenjin will beat your d.4D guaranteed. The only reliable way to bait it is with a delayed Assault Through. If you do Assault Through as early as possible vs earliest possible Hotenjin, he'll get a 5B and counterhit you out of your Assault Through after you cross up.

Vs Mu: Will always dodge and sometimes clash. Will also clash with her super.

Vs Tsubaki: She can only punish with close range IB into A or D DP. Will dodge her super.

Vs Lambda: Dodges gravity seed (clash after IB) but will lose to both her supers cleanly.

Vs Tager: If you're not magnetized, he can beat your d.4D with 720 on normal block, and all his command throws on IB. Clashes with Magna Tech Wheel but you can cancel your clash into another d.4D and it will dodge it completely, giving you enough time to punish with 3C. On IB however, your 2nd d.4D will not dodge him if you're close enough, so you'll need meter to RC (by now you're past the window after the superflash where you can't RC). Will always lose to IB Spark Bolt.

Vs Bang: Guaranteed to dodge Ougi. Will always lose to Daifunka (except for the very rare occasion where it will clash) and Steel Rain (you won't recover in time if you reload). You're just gonna have to bait Daifunka with a delayed Assualt Through because like Hazama, if you both do your moves asap after a blocked 5D Bang will counterhit your Assualt Through with a 6C after you cross him up.

Vs Noel: Dodges the first hit of Fenrir but will eat the gunshot portion of it. Also loses to 5D mash.

Vs Taokaka: Loses to Hexa-Edge and will lose to a LATE leap super. If she leap supers asap she will eat a CH.

Vs Hakumen: Loses to Yukikaze and a WELL TIMED 6D. If he mashes 6D out of blockstun he will get counterhit. Guaranteed to dodge the hit portion of 5D even if you activate it and dodges 2D completely.

Vs Arakune: Beam super will beat d.4D at close ranges on IB only. Otherwise it will clash and then dodge it cleanly, and he can't reach you even if he moves forward during the super.

Vs Carl: Loses to gear super obviously.

Vs Rachel: Dodges cat chair on normal block and clashes on IB. Loses to Tempest Dhalia.

Edited November 16, 2010 by MiraclePizza

[dragontamer]

Vs Bang: Guaranteed to dodge Ougi. Will always lose to Daifunka (except for the very rare occasion where it will clash) and Steel Rain (you won't recover in time if you reload). You're just gonna have to bait Daifunka with a delayed Assualt Through because like Hazama, if you both do your moves asap after a blocked 5D Bang will counterhit your Assualt Through with a 6C after you cross him up.

Bang is a special case. Drive suddenly becomes a viable strategy because Ashura doesn't have startup invincibility and Daifunka / Steel Rain can be reaction -> Assault Through to get away from it. You have something like 20 frames AFTER the super freeze before Daifunka hits, and ~40 frames for Steel Rain. Plenty of time to whiff with any of your D attacks and then dodge with assault through.

Just pay attention, you can't afford to whiff twice. But say 5D -> (Daifunka) -> d.6D (whiff) -> 214D (Safely Dodges) always works. The only attack it doesn't work on is lol d.6C for obvious reasons.

You just gotta know your frame traps to punish his 5A and 2D mashing (or really, just throw d.6D at him). That said, good Bangs will throw you during the 5D startup. So I've never figured out how to "enter" chain revolver pressure safely (outside of Chain Revolver Oki: which is also Daifunka proof).

EDIT: Maybe "viable" is too strong of a word, because there's almost no way to safely land 5D to start chain revolver pressure. But on blocked chain revolver Oki, I do believe Noel captures a temporary advantage over Bang.

--------

I'm pretty sure Carl can't do Gear Super during a frame trap (ie: d.6A or d.5B), because d.6A recovers in time to run away with Assault Through.

Edited November 16, 2010 by dragontamer

[Halcyone3]

though if you cancel the recovery of 5C by wiffing a throw, it actually gives you much better recovery than 5C itself, I've actually done this to continue pressure. This tactic will still be beat out if your opponent is mashing 5A, but like I said, Noel has no solid options, only a bunch of gimmicks that can be beat easily if your opponent knows what you are going to do.

i saw that in some vids too, am i missing something in how the frame data is read? because i don't see how that could possibly be faster.

5C has 18 recovery frames

throw has 7 start-up, 4 active, and 12 recovery, so a total of 23 frames.

i'm not questioning it exactly (even saw some japanese players do this), i just want to know if i'm just not reading the data right, i can't really understand how cancelling into throw makes you recover faster

[7r17r1]

5C has 18 recovery frame, but also 6 active frame, so if you throw cancel 6C at the first frame well... you exchange 23 recovery frame for 23 recovery frame =D

huhu

[Halcyone3]

5C has 18 recovery frame, but also 6 active frame, so if you throw cancel 6C at the first frame well... you exchange 23 recovery frame for 23 recovery frame =D

huhu

ah, i forgot about the excess active frames. but still....... how is it faster? o.o

adding the excess active frames u have them both equal

[LunaKage]

DragonTamer

Tsuuna and I tested something with the CR Oki set-up, and if Bang uses wakeup 6D and teleports behind you he will be safe from d.6C, if timed right it's still possible to d.2D over it after d.6C though.

i saw that in some vids too, am i missing something in how the frame data is read? because i don't see how that could possibly be faster.

5C has 18 recovery frames

throw has 7 start-up, 4 active, and 12 recovery, so a total of 23 frames.

i'm not questioning it exactly (even saw some japanese players do this), i just want to know if i'm just not reading the data right, i can't really understand how cancelling into throw makes you recover faster

To be honest, I'm not sure why/how it works, but according to the person who told me about it 5C > Throw Wiff, is +2 on block, I can't really verify that, nor does it seem likely, but for whatever reason it helps out alot. 5C > Throw > 5C will catch some people mashing long range attacks, but still gets stuffed out to 5As on occasion(lolhitbox). I suppose it may have something to do with its level, or maybe blockstun is longer for the first couple of active frames, hell I don't know, as long as it helps I'll keep using it, maybe someone else can solve the mystery?

5C has 18 recovery frame, but also 6 active frame, so if you throw cancel 6C at the first frame well... you exchange 23 recovery frame for 23 recovery frame =D

huhu

That's what I figured too, but while trying it out in training mode, if you don't cancel and just let them recover from 5C, your opponent releases his guard before you can move(recovers faster than you, hence 5C's -7 on block) but if you throw cancel, he releases his guard an instant after you can start moving(if you dash on the first available frame, timing is a little rough).

[7r17r1]

Good to know, I didn't want to use it since I was thinking it was just a bait like "ho ! I messed up and throw out a throw ... 5D =p !"

[dragontamer]

DragonTamer

Tsuuna and I tested something with the CR Oki set-up, and if Bang uses wakeup 6D and teleports behind you he will be safe from d.6C, if timed right it's still possible to d.2D over it after d.6C though.

That is true. Bang can always escape safely as long as he remains focused on escaping. If he does something like 6D (A), and then Noel does d.6C (Guard Pointed) -> d.2D (Counter) -> d.6C -> 623D -> stuff for a good deal of damage.

Bang's ideal move is 6D ©, just teleport across the screen. But this is not a punish, its just an escape. So its good to throw out chain-revolver Oki at your opponent. If he knows how to escape... you aren't punished... so might as well abuse the strategy

To be honest, I'm not sure why/how it works, but according to the person who told me about it 5C > Throw Wiff, is +2 on block, I can't really verify that, nor does it seem likely, but for whatever reason it helps out alot. 5C > Throw > 5C will catch some people mashing long range attacks, but still gets stuffed out to 5As on occasion(lolhitbox). I suppose it may have something to do with its level, or maybe blockstun is longer for the first couple of active frames, hell I don't know, as long as it helps I'll keep using it, maybe someone else can solve the mystery?

I find that hard to believe. Noel doesn't have +Frames. She never does

Edited November 16, 2010 by dragontamer

[LunaKage]

I find that hard to believe. Noel doesn't have +Frames. She never does

I agree with this statement so hard.

However, we do get +1 on 2C, it's just too bad we end up almost a full character length away, adding to the fact that most people know that after 2C is their chance to escape, it makes pressure next to impossible if you aren't gonna 5A/2A/2B your opponent to death.

[Sahgren]

Leaves you to wonder why the rest of her normals, or at least her A attacks, don't have better frames, considering how short ranged/small hit-box they are. I'm personally hoping that they buffed the frames on her normals in the loctests and it's just that no-one noticed.

[LunaKage]

Leaves you to wonder why the rest of her normals, or at least her A attacks, don't have better frames, considering how short ranged/small hit-box they are. I'm personally hoping that they buffed the frames on her normals in the loctests and it's just that no-one noticed.

This is what I was thinking, we cant report a change we can't see, maybe they buffed her hitboxes?

Anyway, this is a topic for the general thread, we have to remember to keep this thread for QnA only, or at least mostly :x

[ThunderboltZ28]

I've been missing d.6b after 3C > 66C > 5D a lot lately. Its really starting to hurt. I spent hours in training mode practicing the basic drive combo doing it to the point where I never mess up. First match? Dropped it every time at d.6B. Am I messing up the distance on 66C and putting myself too far? But even n the corner when I do 66C right up in them d.6B will miss. What am I doing wrong?

[LunaKage]

I've been missing d.6b after 3C > 66C > 5D a lot lately. Its really starting to hurt. I spent hours in training mode practicing the basic drive combo doing it to the point where I never mess up. First match? Dropped it every time at d.6B. Am I messing up the distance on 66C and putting myself too far? But even n the corner when I do 66C right up in them d.6B will miss. What am I doing wrong?

A couple of possibilities:

1. Your opponent is too high when you hit 66C, this is unlikely though do to 6C's reduced start up.

2. You're doing d.6B too fast, you need to get the feel of when to input the command, this became second nature in CT seeing as you needed it twice in a combo.

Its possible that: due to the pressure of doing a combo mid match, you do the command for d.6B too fast, or even too late, learning to bring your combos from training mode into an actual match can be hard at first, but it will be something you get over.

Another possibility: If it was against Bang or Arakune, their hitboxes don't like 5D > d.6B so they have to be a little lower to the ground than most of the cast in order to connect it.

[dragontamer]

I've been missing d.6b after 3C > 66C > 5D a lot lately. Its really starting to hurt. I spent hours in training mode practicing the basic drive combo doing it to the point where I never mess up. First match? Dropped it every time at d.6B. Am I messing up the distance on 66C and putting myself too far? But even n the corner when I do 66C right up in them d.6B will miss. What am I doing wrong?

You need to make sure the opponent is low enough. Also, practice against all of the characters. I'm pretty sure Arakune will have a different timing than Ragna.

The key is the delay between 22C -> 66C. If it helps, try 22C -> 66C -> 236A -> 66C -> 5D. It should lower the opponent by one more notch.

[ThunderboltZ28]

Actually it was Noel and Tsubaki I was having the most trouble with. And yes they were too high for d.6B. I noticed I was inputting it faster in a match and it was screwing me up.

So I beat a Tsubaki slowing down and actually finishing combos. Then proceeded to lose four straight rounds against a beginner mode Noel. Progress.

[LunaKage]

Actually it was Noel and Tsubaki I was having the most trouble with. And yes they were too high for d.6B. I noticed I was inputting it faster in a match and it was screwing me up.

So I beat a Tsubaki slowing down and actually finishing combos. Then proceeded to lose four straight rounds against a beginner mode Noel. Progress.

As long as you are progressing, also, to beat beginner mode Noel, just spam 2D, there is literally nothing they can do about it. You shouldn't be fighting random players anyway, talk to people here, add them, if you have good connections with them, then fight them often, possibly the greatest advice ever given right there.

[MiraclePizza]

Bang is a special case. Drive suddenly becomes a viable strategy because Ashura doesn't have startup invincibility and Daifunka / Steel Rain can be reaction -> Assault Through to get away from it. You have something like 20 frames AFTER the super freeze before Daifunka hits, and ~40 frames for Steel Rain. Plenty of time to whiff with any of your D attacks and then dodge with assault through.

I'm pretty sure Carl can't do Gear Super during a frame trap (ie: d.6A or d.5B), because d.6A recovers in time to run away with Assault Through.

I just meant for 5D -> d.4D. Of course there are plenty of other ways to avoid various reversals and reversal-like options during your drive strings, but I was just focusing mainly on characters punishing you after blocking a 5D and what 5D -> d.4D will and won't work against (and a few things with Assault Through as an alternative I guess).

[ThunderboltZ28]

Is there a specific drive combo that makes the spring raid > 66C easier? I'm doing the basic drive combo stuff. jD > 6D > Spring raid and not getting close. Started doing d.5d after 6D and now I'm hitting with 66C after they tech. Is there something I can add in there or is it a different combination of drive moves?

[LunaKage]

Is there a specific drive combo that makes the spring raid > 66C easier? I'm doing the basic drive combo stuff. jD > 6D > Spring raid and not getting close. Started doing d.5d after 6D and now I'm hitting with 66C after they tech. Is there something I can add in there or is it a different combination of drive moves?

You shouldn't be using Spring Raid after a j.D. Because it wouldn't be possible to follow up correctly. A good place to start would be practicing the basic 4.2k midscreen BnB: 3C > 22C > 66C > 5D > d.2D > Spring Raid > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.5C > d.6B > Bloom Trigger.

[ThunderboltZ28]

You shouldn't be using Spring Raid after a j.D. Because it wouldn't be possible to follow up correctly. A good place to start would be practicing the basic 4.2k midscreen BnB: 3C > 22C > 66C > 5D > d.2D > Spring Raid > 66C > j.D > d.6D > d.5C > d.6B > Bloom Trigger.

That's better. Thanks.

[Sahgren]

Another 623d > 66c link is off of a 5d counter hit. CH 5d > d.6c > d.6d > d.2d> 623d > 66c > drive ender. I personally find it easier to do the link because you catch them a tiny bit higher/lower with 66c, so the timing isn't quite as strict, but it may just come down to preference.