[CS2] Noel CS1 -> CS2 Changlog

[dragontamer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvl63iJYWM

d.5A is air unblockable. Proof at 2:33 or so.

Seems like 5C is a better poking tool now as well. It looks like it has less recovery... but we should wait for some frame results / tests before we officially list that.

Edited December 23, 2010 by dragontamer

[SkyKing]

Very nice.

If 5C is slower then it'd be pretty bad to whiff, but throw cancelable on block should mitigate some of the recovery. Air unblockable normal is still good for 5C to have.

[Danny Schme]

There is, quite understandably, no guide for CS2 Noel, yet. But, I'd like to talk about drive oki in preparation for it. Dragontamer showed us CR Oki in CS1 by using d6C over a downed opponent which forces a [albeit, slow] 50/50 mixup using d6B and d6D OR catch mashers (this part really only works on netplay).

In CS2, we're already seeing Noel's take an approach on this concept. Most commonly seen so far, Noels will run up to a downed opponent and 4D as they tech. Since the drives are much faster in CS2, the 50/50 is that much stronger. The variation that we're seeing is only usable in the corner as the opponent should be able to neutral tech and back dash out of the mixup if it were midscreen. I'm not aware of any changes to CS2's d6C besides its speed so couldn't Dragontamer's setup technically work should the situation arise? I'm sure Dragontamer mentioned it, but Assault Through could make it a 3-way "mixup" potentially. And with the shorter travel distance on the move, your opponent would technically have less time to mash/react. It's really all theory right now since we don't have the game and can only see what Japan uploads. But it warrants discussion.

Normal Oki options:

* Mash 5A to limit movement/attacks/bait DPs

* 2B > 6C to pick up late techs

* Dash under 2B (sucks in America/online due to people's constant mash)

* 6B meaty overhead (not as good as it was in CT, people can backdash it or just block high as its a slow move)

Corner Drive 50/50 Oki:

* 4D (whiff) > d6B

* 4D (whiff) > d6D

[POTENTIAL] Midscreen Drive 3-Way Oki: (Again, I've rarely seen this used so I'm not familiar with good setups for it)

* 5D (whiff) > d6C (blocked) > d6B

* 5D (whiff) > d6C (blocked) > d6D

* 5D (whiff) > d6C (blocked) > d214D

If those options are blocked you can d5B > 236A or whatever escape/ender you choose. Of course this is NOT a good idea against a character with a DP, ESPECIALLY a character with a DP and 50 meter to burn. Its common sense but I know if I don't write it, people will mention it anyways.

LUNA - IF THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT THREAD FOR THIS OR YOU'D PREFER IT ELSEWHERE, LET ME KNOW AND I'LL MOVE IT.

[Danny Schme]

I'm being lazy - was there a change to 2B that isn't in the OP. I swore I read somewhere that 2B's attack level went up, or something like that, so we can actually hitconfirm with it now. Like 2B > 2B > 6A > Combo.

Just curious because that would be godlike.

[LunaKage]

I'm being lazy - was there a change to 2B that isn't in the OP. I swore I read somewhere that 2B's attack level went up, or something like that, so we can actually hitconfirm with it now. Like 2B > 2B > 6A > Combo.

Just curious because that would be godlike.

You can actually already do that.

[Danny Schme]

You can actually already do that.

How the hell do I mess that up?! I only get that if 2B counter hits. I'll mash harder, I suppose.

[SkyKing]

I notice that America likes to jump. A LOT. I sometimes drop my 2B > 6A hit-confirm chances because I don't expect it to hit.

I really want to see a hitbox video of CS2. I wondering exactly how effective Noel's normals are now in applying pressure as well as hitting out jump-happy players with 5B/5C.

[Runis]

lol haidas are back. 22b dash 6c repeat lolol. 22b and 22c are both dash cancelable now, I think? ez mode

I posted a video of being able to do that ages ago. It works in CS1. As long as they still float a little bit after 22B, 22B 66C should work.

edit: my bad it wasn't actually a vid, just the combo and saying its a lulzy way to troll against tager/bang. Pity that 6C(2) same move prorates or we'd have gas with this stuff in the corner.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Runis

[GunslingerSonic]

I like Danny's post.

But I would like to point something out.

Midscreen Drive 3-Way Oki: (Again, I've rarely seen this used so I'm not familiar with good setups for it)

* 5D (whiff) > d6C (blocked) > d6B

* 5D (whiff) > d6C (blocked) > d6D

* 5D (whiff) > d6C (blocked) > d214D

This is a good setup, don't get me wrong.

But what if someone would punish these setups.

For Example: Tager can 360/720 you if you do d.6D. dragontamer even show us that on his video.

They'll mash DP. Counter attack is some way.

Espcially Assault Through, someone who is smart will block, Grab, 360/720 if you're Tager.

Think about it.

If I'm wrong about something, feel free to correct me.

[SkyKing]

The only thing I can think of is to do these oki setups with 50 heat available. Being able to cancel prematurely if it is blocked is something that I always looks for. In the above mentioned ones, RC during the d.6C is just as scary ask having to guess the next CR move. Also, instead of going into d.6C, you could go 5D/6D (whiff) > into d.214D or Bloom Trigger RC. I'd say always have the option of being unpredictable when you have the meter to do it.

DPs I think you can clash is you space your oki correctly. I think that 6D (whiff) > d.6B (for oki) or d.4D (for DP read) should work. I've had it clash sometimes, and I'm still trying to figure out how to capitalize on that clash.

[Danny Schme]

If I'm wrong about something, feel free to correct me.

You're wrong about nothing, here. As I said, I have zero experience using that setup - was just posting it because I knew it existed. To add to that, nothing Noel does is safe so this also should be no surprise. These aren't things you wanna use all the time, by any means. Like all situations in a fighting game, you need to feel out and read your opponent's habits as much as you can.

I did make a little note about people DPing (didn't mention the 360/720, but that should be understood as well without saying, at this point), and how this isn't going to be a tactic to use all the time against the entire cast. When used sparingly, these stand good potential.

Of course if you play against someone who mashes reversals on wakeup every single time(this is BB in America after all), you do not want to use this. If they mash 2A on wakeup a lot, 2D them. It's all about switching up the game plan and learning your opponent - or - training them.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Danny Schme

[dragontamer]

Corner Drive 50/50 Oki:

* 4D (whiff) > d6B

* 4D (whiff) > d6D

If you're gonna do corner Oki you might as well do:

6C (2) -> 6C -> j.d -> d.5B -> (slight delay so opponent wakes up) -> d.6C

This gives you 2 CR attacks after d.6C and one finisher, so plenty of opportunity to combo your mixup, while still taking advantage of d.6C's absurd hitstun, meatiness, and guard break. Obviously theory craft because I don't have the game yet.

I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work in BBCS2. I use it in BBCS1 all the time. Most opponents don't see it coming (I never mentioned it in my video ). More seriously, I only discovered that one after I published the CR oki video.

[POTENTIAL] Midscreen Drive 3-Way Oki: (Again, I've rarely seen this used so I'm not familiar with good setups for it)

* 5D (whiff) > d6C (blocked) > d6B

* 5D (whiff) > d6C (blocked) > d6D

* 5D (whiff) > d6C (blocked) > d214D

The things that made d.6C "good" (well... as good as it was gonna get) was this: Forced emergency tech -- Your opponent cannot roll or quick rise. Its tech or no tech. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. This allowed for some 2B -> 6C pickups if they stopped mashing, and guard-break shenanigans if they tech. (d.6C -> d.5a -> d.6C -> 623D Rapid -> 3C for -3 primers if you got heat).

Also, d.6C still seems pretty slow in the videos I've seen. So I don't expect 5D -> d.6C to actually work.

Now, if d.6A has more untechable time and still "slams down" aerial opponents on hit (like Bang's 6C), then j.d -> d.6A -> d.6C is a possible setup. But I can't really tell until we get the game.

[jags861]

So is Haida back vs. all/most characters in the 3C/[214A 2b] 22b 22bc 66c [22b 66c]*x variety or is it just vs. Tager?

[GunslingerSonic]

It works on Most of the Characters. I don't think it will work on Tsubaki and Hazama.

But how we know it won't work?

We never played Noel on CS2.

Tager, Jin are Haida Loopable.

Makoto is Haida Loopable. Look at the video I posted.

Edited December 31, 2010 by GunslingerSonic

[Danny Schme]

If you're gonna do corner Oki you might as well do:

6C (2) -> 6C -> j.d -> d.5B -> (slight delay so opponent wakes up) -> d.6C

While this could potentially be a reset to use, its not oki as there is no knockdown. If they are somehow in the air, they can just block after teching because d6C isn't air unblockable. I'm not really sure what the point is, as you're doing a real combo that will end with the character knocked down in the corner where oki can actually be attempted (as much as it can be in BB).

[HexaNoid]

d.5B can't be teched out of in the air so, providing they don't barrier block on wake-up, that could potentially punish a neutral tech. Not sure what would happen on a tech roll though.

[LunaKage]

DragonTamer is referencing his CS1 Chain Revolver Oki setup, and while that setup works as oki in CS1, we don't know if it would force an emergency tech in CS2 the same way, due to d.6B having different properties. Assuming that it does however, after a j.D, the d.6B would force an emergency ground tech if they were mashing a tech button, this means that there is no opportunity to ground roll, and if your opponent doesn't tech, they get hit with d.6C as a blue beated combo, I usually use spring raid if this happens to finish off the combo.

[Danny Schme]

Luna, your vids helped me understand Dragontamer's jD > d6D > d6C deal. Thanks for that! Its a good mash trap, but I'm hesitant to call it oki. If you look at oki in games such as Guilty Gear or Melty Blood, it is nothing like this. I guess this is "BlazOki".

In games such as those you have your combo ender which grants you a small chunk of untechable time where you get to do whatever you want to your rising opponent. The setups I was talking about are going on that mindset - getting your full/guaranteed damage combo then working with the downed opponent. But at the end of the day, damage is damage, however we get it.

I do support the use of the trap you were talking about, DT. I'm gonna work that into my gameplay. Also, I'm going add Mizzet's crouching drive 2D setup too. I never put any time into that one.

[LunaKage]

Yeah, Noel has no real Oki, its just another gimmick really :C

[Danny Schme]

Yeah, Noel has no real Oki, its just another gimmick really :C

Agreed. Its what we run on. BB as a whole doesn't really allow for oki outside of a handful of characters. And even then, some require meter.

Sidenote - I was messing around today and tried the 4D whiff while they tech into 50/50 deal. Worked out moderately okay as long as they didn't tech roll. Once I had 4D hit, then for the shit of it, I threw Spring Raid. They neutral teched after the 4D connected and ate the SR. I had 50 meter to blow so why not give it a shot? But if you want to talk about gimmicky, THAT's it!

[SkyKing]

So with CR being generally faster and different properties with some of the moves, could we also go for a d.5A anti air-tech as well? I think it'll be even more imperative to change up what to do on opponent's wakeups.

[dragontamer]

Agreed. Its what we run on. BB as a whole doesn't really allow for oki outside of a handful of characters. And even then, some require meter.

Sidenote - I was messing around today and tried the 4D whiff while they tech into 50/50 deal. Worked out moderately okay as long as they didn't tech roll. Once I had 4D hit, then for the shit of it, I threw Spring Raid. They neutral teched after the 4D connected and ate the SR. I had 50 meter to blow so why not give it a shot? But if you want to talk about gimmicky, THAT's it!

Gimmicks? You don't know the name till you try corner Fenrir -> j.4D Oki.

Funny thing, it might actually work in BBCS2 because it crosses up and is low. Lol.

[SkyKing]

It was in an earlier post, but I think the 5C > 6B Gatling should be added in the OP for her buffs.

Looks like now we have a viable double cross-up with j.4D > d.2D if they do low block the j.4D. She's looking rather nasty now.

[Runis]

j.4D> d.2D Double Cross Up.

j.4D>d.6D Mix up for if they try to prevent double cross up by standing.

j.4D>d.5A Anti air if they try to jump out.

j.4D>d.2D>rc>2D TRIPLE CROSS UP!!!!

[SkyKing]

If you do RC for the attempted cross-ups, I think it would be more practical to do:

j.4D > d.2D > RC > j.4D > ~combo

The triple cross-up seems extremely risky, since they can stand and it would negate the cross-up of the 2Ds. With the RC > j.4D you have a chance to FC if they try to escape out of panic. Also, j.4D is a low so they may mix themselves up by attempting to negate the cross-up, but instead get tagged low.