DaiAndOh Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) Hey yo. So a new game is out in Japan. This is the thread for everything CS2 Bang. Anything regarding CS1 Bang gets deleted. Please note that questions are unlikely to be answered due to lack of people on here in Japan. I will be revising this page soon. Meanwhile Kensou over in Texas which has had CS2 for a short bit gives us his impressions EVERYONE'S FAVORITE NINJA: BANG SHISHIGAMI! In this write up I'm going to go in depth with what I've currently experienced with Bang and my opinion on him in Continuum Shift 2. As a disclaimer, please take this information and do what you will with it but remember this is an opinion and as time goes by, may subject to change. Why? Well, games tend to evolve and opinions begin to change as new discoveries are found so again remember this isn't concrete! Now with all the formalities and disclaimers out of the way, let's get to the meat and potatoes shall we? FIRST IMPRESSIONS? My first impressions of Bang weren't really all that great to be completely honest. It felt like alot of work with him in the previous game went to waste. I felt he lost alot of what made him great and it really made me wonder about the balance decisions that were made for him. The more I play him the more I realize that you really just have to be on point with everything now. The margin for error is still there and luckily Bang has the hit points to deal with it. This version of Bang will teach players to learn more than the surface level stuff in Continuum Shift to fully exploit the more technical aspects of Bang's tool set. To be fair, Bang on mid to low level can scrounge by with the simple strategies but as you went up the ladder it's alot harder when your opponnent understands your options. Now it's not to say you can't win at a high level with the simpler strategies at all, Satoshi proved that countless times. However it's players like Dora and Nezu for example that raised the bar on Bang's potential dating back to Calamity Trigger till even now in Continuum Shift 2. The best way I can put it is, think of CS1 as a primer for CS2 Bang. Getting an understanding of him in CS1 will make the learning curve less by a far margin. NORMALS As you may already know Bang's important normals are alot slower and hitboxes have been re-worked, namely 5A and 5B. 5A is DEFINITELY 1f slower making it a 6f move. Not really all that bad but a bit harder to open with now not to mention anti air with. 5B I believe is now 10f start up now so already you can tell its a bit harder to use these as starters to open ground offense. I will say that 5B and 2B being air unblockables are pretty useful. The new 6B is still the same start up it just doesn't give you the knockdown to an OTG combo any more. However I believe on counter hit standing, it forces crouch and you can link 5A into a combo. The new gatling listed 2B > 5B I feel is pretty good due to the new start up of 6A being 17f and it seems to be the same +1 adv on block. His strings now are more varied due to this making for some pretty cool frame trapping since instant blocking has been reduced from ground -5 and aerial -10 to -3 and -6. Mixing the 6A and every other normal is pretty neat now because the 6A locks them in place if no barrier was used yielding some interesting results. So definitely a plus in this department. *NOTES ON GUARD POINTS* -6D is your new best friend with the best amount of G.P.s. It stops highs and lows but is vunerable to overheads -2D is good but slow to start with jump cancel attached to it. Pretty dangerous if used right -5D really fast start up -J.D feels about the same as CS1 SUPER CRUSH! aka PULVERIZING FIST~! The loss of this move's old properties on hit is what really hinders Bang the most to me. The loss you ask? The loss of the wall bounce hurts his mid screen game and overall combo abilities specifically mid screen. Don't get me wrong, it still breaks one primer like CS1 so its application for that is still good. Unlike CS2, Bang could always rely on this move for all his standard combos mid screen, be it an ender or mid combo tool it was always there for his all purpose combo tool. Since the new focus of CS2 is corner positioning, this move no longer serves this purpose. Instead if you haven't seen in videos, it throws the enemy across the screen. Now, on Fatal Counter you get the wall bounce mid screen and in corner non Fatal Counter you get the wall bounce like you normally would. But the shift in corner positioning for everyone to dish out the damage doesn't hurt Bang all that much but the strategy is the problem. I feel his strongest position overall is the mid screen because his ability to mix up is alot stronger. THE NEW STRATEGY? With the new system of Instant Blocking, frame trapping seems to be pretty effective. Frame trapping with 5B >6A, 5A > 6A, 2B, 5B, 6A, all of these are viable and keep the strings fresh and lead to counter hits. Again, the varied strings allow for interesting guard strings and pressure. I also think setting a bumper or two is pretty important. It doesn't garuntee you a win but getting to the end result is alot easier. Bumpers allow for baiting, mixups, the ability to close distance from the enemy or create distance from the enemy. Many of you know this as it stands but not many Bang players use them to their advantage. My suggestion? Learn how to use them! In CS1 bumpers aren't a necessity but more of a compliment to your game, it's sort of the same again but a player can always use another movement option. The corner is the focus as stated before, so naturally you have to decide damage over the okizeme. Mid screen is Bang's best friend due to all the okizeme options he can perform with and without bumpers not to forget Fuu-Rin-Kazan which I will touch base on further on. However, the mid screen damage is limited to a standing enemy to net good damage. *A quick break down of damage non corner stocked if you haven't been watching videos* -Standing Enemy = 2-3k depending on counter hit j.4B or j.C with 1-2 Seals depending on if you want to use a Web Nail -Crouching Enemy = 1.5-3k roughly depending on counter hit jumping attacks from the above and either 1 Seal, knockdown and okizeme, Super Crush ender leaving you at neutral positioning or end with Daifunka yielding in 3k So on one hand, you can stick to the mid screen okizeme but not be able to really dish out the major damage due to not being in the corner. Not to mention, if you are crossing up, which you will be doing, you will take longer to get to the corner positioning to dish out the high damage. On the other hand, you can end with Super Crush which gives you corner carry but at the same token leaves you back at neutral position or use 50% Heat on Daifunka for the full screen carry. However, there are some instances you may have your back to the wall and while you can turn the tide and change positioning with an opening, it might be best to take the fight back to the mid screen to regain momentum after landing a combo or after successfully escaping pressure. This is of course not to say a player couldn't just done the exact opposite, so it's up to the player to make the decision they feel is best in this regard. Damage versus positioning is the question a player will always be thinking about at all times when playing Bang. FUU-RIN-KAZAN! FRKZ! One of Bang's greatest tools is one of his most risky tools this time around. But before I get into it, a quick break down of what I feel FRKZ was per game and what I feel it is now. *Calamity Trigger* -Defensive mechanic with great movement options to evade and advance -Allowed for Bang to always dish out great damage -Best baiting tool in the game versus a burst or counter assault -Run away Poison Nail -Slightly stiff on execution on some points *Continuum Shift* -Offensive and Defensive mechanic with the same options above with higher damage output -Easier to execute commands all the way around *Continuum Shift 2* -Offensive mechanic more so than the previous games -Harder to bait things due to the shorten back dash distances -Defensively you will have a hard time avoiding things especially bursts This is my stance on FRKZ in my opinion. Now after watching alot of videos and messing around with my own research it seems that FRKZ just doesn't really yield the rewards of either of the old games. The shortened back dashes going up-back and back just truly makes his abilities to bait harder when this tool is used for that purpose and then some. His mid screen damage from it is great, I personally haven't done the combos but the stuff Nezu and Dora are doing looks solid and staple for FRKZ. Seals seem harder to obtatin depending on the match up I think. Of course, having them stocked is always good most definitely though. Matches like Arakune and Carl I think more so than ever its important. Much like in CT versus Carl especially, FRKZ is a must to not have to deal with the clap infinite, and like in CS1 for Arakune you need it to get rid of the Curse Gauge. This time around you really have to know what you're doing with FRKZ because the margin for error seems a bit higher than before. In some of the recent Game A-Cho videos I've seen Nezu use FRKZ and still lose pretty hard. It's slightly discouraging but I believe there's still hope for this tool. I honestly think bumpers are just that much better than FRKZ in most instances due to the movement options not being limited. So to sum it up once again, FRKZ for the matches like Arakune, Carl, Tager etc and bumpers for everything else universally. THE SUMMARY? Playing Bang now means you really can't afford to make too many mistakes and you need to be precise more often than not. A very high degree of technical skill and extensive knowlege of Bang's tool set is required this time around. Huge emphasis on corner carrying versus mid screen okizeme determines how a you go about dealing damage. Alot of Bang's old bad matches from CT are here again so you have to take a page from CT and re-use those strategies with the newer tactics. Getting Seals is a bit of a task so getting to FRKZ can be difficult. Also FRKZ isn't all that strong defensively with the limited backwards movement but, more so offensively with a high risk/high reward stigma attatched to it. All in all he's still a good character its just a matter of getting adjusted to his new changes. Hope this helps you guys out as a primer of sorts so..discuss~ -If at all possible would be great if we could get this on front page or something? Figure it'd be good for everyone to read not only just in the Bang threads. Just a thought? . Edited March 9, 2011 by DaiAndOh
Tofma Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) so how much does bang get off 5b vs crouchers? seeing as 2c is likely techable and 623b doesnt wallbounce im guessing its somewhere near 1k and maybe like 3k if you use a daifunka i was expecting less dmg overall though Edited December 9, 2010 by Tofma
crystalwind Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) Am I awesome now:)? ● 5C Fatal counter on Counter hit. ● 5B Slower startup. (about 2 frame?) Attack level increased by 1. ● 2B 2B>5B Added ● 5A, JD Much Less damage following after 5A,JD and gets harder to connect longer combo. Someone reported that 5A anti-air is now easily countered. JD ground bounce on CH. ● 6A Faster startup. (5C>6A combo available) Air untechable time decreased. 5B>6A confirmed. ● 6B Can't connect to any moves on normal hit. ● 5D 'Much' faster startup. eg. (crouching)5B>2B>5D Available Wall-bounce on Counter hit, but seems hard to chase. ● 6D More damage following after 6D? (Not sure yet) ● Furikajan Travel-distance of backward direction gets halve. ● Confirmed combo list (Standing) 5A>5B>2B>6C>JD>236C>Land>Dash 5C>6D>B bumper B>2B>6C>JD>2B>B>JA>JB>J4C>J4C>JC>236A :2700DMG＋Poison B>2B>6C>JD>236C>Land>Dash 5C>6D>Daifunka(DMG3300) or fire punch(2700) :Field 2 icon combo (Crouching) B>2B>2C>B bumper B>2B>5D>etc. B>2B>Daifunka 5A>5B>2B>5D>Daibunka dmg2800? 5C>5D>Daibunka dmg 3300? 2A>(2A)>5B>>2B>5D>Daibunka dmg2100? (Corner Standing or Crouching) B>2B>623B>B>6C>J4C>Air 623B>Land>B>6C>J4C>JC>236A 3000＋Poison B>2B>623B>B>6C>J4C>Air 623B>(Reverse direction)Daifunka 4700 Character limited? In case of Ashura 4100 Air 623B>Land>Daifunka 623B>Daifunka 3700 Bang otoshi>RC>C>6D>623B>B>6C>J4C>Air 623B>B>6C>J4C>JC>236A dmg 5400 (Air bang otoshi startup dmg 5800) Bang otoshi>RC>C>6D>623B>B>6C>J4C>Air 623B>(Reverse direction)Daifunka dmg 6300 Air grap>Daifunka 3805 2D>JD>2B>5D>8623B>Land>5D : 4 icon combo 5D(CH)>Daibunka confirmed. *fixed some errors (like 236B -> 623B lol why I wrote like this? ) Edited December 14, 2010 by crystalwind
Tofma Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 ● 5D 'Much' faster startup. eg. (crouching)5B>2B>5D Available well that changes everything
RaveDX Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 5D combos look kinda weird o_o'... All in all though, Bang looks pretty solid compared to all other characters XD.
rei-Scarred Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 Bang sounds broken as fuck now tbh, with all the other nerfs people have. 5B 2B 5D? 5C 6A?! Why do we need wall bounce when we have these. 5C FC combos will be troll-like
Master Bigode Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 I'm loving the changes, he's probably much more fun to play now. I also like how they are forcing us to use Nezu's bnb.
Andarel Posted December 9, 2010 Posted December 9, 2010 Most people seem like they're surviving CSII just fine, and are looking more fun to play. Any idea if his nails are remaining nerfed like they were in earlier loketests?
RaveDX Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Hey what's 2a used for now that it cant combo into anything but itself??... or can it combo into another normal or special?...
Master Bigode Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Hey what's 2a used for now that it cant combo into anything but itself??... or can it combo into another normal or special?... You can still combo into 5B.
huey253 Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 nezu's dash 6A combo? it probably won't work due to 6A being more air techable
zeth07 Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 nezu's dash 6A combo? it probably won't work due to 6A being more air techable Pretty sure they were referring to this when they mentioned the Nezu bnb: 5A>5B>2B>6C>JD>236C>Land>Dash 5C>6D>B bumper
Justice7541 Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Any videos of this new 19-frame 5D? It sounds hilarious.
SlyStrife Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 For the longest time I was silently crying about the 623B wall bounce, but after seeing some of these new buffs I really don't care too much anymore. Am I seeing right or does 2B actually combo into 5B now? Also that 5D buff really made my day, Imma go to sleep happy tonight. He has so many new combos and his damage wasn't really nerfed that hard, 2.7K on standing meterless and 3K on crouching meterless sound pretty damn good to me. Although I am a bit confused on some things upon looking at the list... does 5D wall bounce without CH on crouching characters (last few combos)? Also I wish the list was a bit more clear on which combos are crouching only and corner only. Also O_o at the 6.3K damage combo, looks like the command grab is beast with heat in the corner now.
crystalwind Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) //SlyStrife 2B>5B is his new gatling combo, but like 5B>2B>5B does not work. Just think if there is firepunch(623B) in the middle of the combo, it is corner combo. Firepunch is now almost useless during combos unless your opponent is near by corners. Btw, here some more info guys. +5D :You can cancel into other moves either on block or hit. Jump cancel is not available on block. +2D :You can jump cancel even on block now. -5D: Frame disadvantage increased. If you don't cancel 5D into other moves, you would get punished. -2D: 2D's auto-guard point startup gets slower? Someone reported he couldn't win against Ragna's GH. -5A: Seems its startup gets slower(5 -> 6?), but not sure yet. Edited December 14, 2010 by crystalwind
SlyStrife Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I knew about the 2B>5B gatling, but what I'm talking about is a combo on the list like this one... B>2B>6C>JD>2B>B>JA>JB>J4C>J4C>JC>236A Is that just a mistake... or is there something I'm just not getting? :P Also, what about the last combo I asked about? The 5D crouching one? Not really concerned about those D nerfs since you cancel 5D and jump cancel 2D. You shouldn't be throwing those around randomly, I see way too many 2D mashers. Most of the D moves are punishable on block in CS1 anyway. Thanks for the info Crystalwind!
Kyosuke Kagami Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Even though I am not a Bang player, I need to ask: Did all his throw combos get the nerf hammer? (AKA more proration).
Tofma Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Did all his throw combos get the nerf hammer? midscreen. yes
crystalwind Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 (Standing)B>2B>6C>JD>2B>B>JA>JB>J4C>J4C>JC>236A The bold portion is not a mistake. As I mentioned above, his new 2B>5B gatling makes this combo available. 5B>2B>5D<- This 5D works when your opponent is 'crouching' due to his faster 5D startup. I think I've already written why it works, though.
Dacidbro Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Wow. 2B 5D, huh. Wow. And 5C 6A? Wow. Huh. ... 6.3k off command grab in the corner, huh? wow. Yeah, he seems like he's doing alright for himself. This Bang guy. In CS2. So much for damage nerfs though, I thought everyone was losing damage..
Justice7541 Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Even though I am not a Bang player, I need to ask: Did all his throw combos get the nerf hammer? (AKA more proration). Who even uses Bang's regular throw?
SlyStrife Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) (Standing)B>2B>6C>JD>2B>B>JA>JB>J4C>J4C>JC>236A The bold portion is not a mistake. As I mentioned above, his new 2B>5B gatling makes this combo available. 5B>2B>5D<- This 5D works when your opponent is 'crouching' due to his faster 5D startup. I think I've already written why it works, though. Oh, I get it now... kinda like how 5C>6A works during the command grab RC combos etc... thanks for clearing that up! I completely understand the 2B>5D part... what I don't get is the 5D into Daifunka... (Crouching) ５Ａ＞５Ｂ＞２Ｂ＞５Ｄ＞Daibunka dmg2800? ５Ｃ＞５Ｄ＞Daibunka dmg 3300? ２Ａ×２＞５Ｂ＞２Ｂ＞５Ｄ＞Daibunka dmg2100? Clearly you're not getting a CH off of 5D here, so does it wall bounce on crouching characters or do they want us to jump cancel it like 6D(probably a dumb question... but I just want to be sure :3)? But yeah, seems like we're doing pretty well! The command grab was already beast enough in CS1... hard to believe they made it even more beasty. On second thought... no it isn't... :P Seems like we'll be at least A tier, and S tier in the corner. Who even uses Bang's regular throw? I think he's talking about the Air grab>daifunka combo which does a nice 5K of damage... and yes it got nerfed about down to about 4K. Still good though Edited December 10, 2010 by SlyStrife
Dacidbro Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 Who even uses Bang's regular throw? Bang's reguar grab was a 4 seal combo on anyone, and incredibly safe on whiff compared to his command grab. Nezu used regular grab more than command grab by a wide margin.
RaveDX Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) You can still combo into 5B. I remember I read "you can not combo 2a>5b anymore" due to 5b having a slower startup?... Well if u can still combo 2a into 5b, Bang will EASILY go S tier again :D ... Edited December 10, 2010 by RaveDX
Dacidbro Posted December 10, 2010 Posted December 10, 2010 I remember I read "you can not combo 2a>5b anymore" due to 5b having a slower startup?... Well if u can still combo 2a into 5b, Bang will easily go into EASILY go S tier again :D ... Talking about tiers without a comparison to another character is like pointing a gun directly at your own critical thinking ability And of course, we don't know almost anything about any character. So again, tiers is pretty moot for discussion.
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