[CS2/EX] Hakumen Info and Discussion

[rtl42]

we talked about that before in a different thread. (I think it was the Hakumen video thread.) the point is that he doesn't land after the Hotaru -- it has to be a "high" Hotaru. i'm not sure if that means it can't be a TK motion, or if you can still TK the Hotaru and get it to work properly, though.

anyways, maybe i should translate what the combo vid is saying. the first 3 combos are "zool" (ズール) style combos; no one seems to know who/what "zool" is, incidentally, but the point is that you don't land after doing hotaru.

in case anyone asks how can we tell that Hakumen doesn't land, it's because you don't hear him land. (listen to the Tager combos for comparison, you can clearly hear his feet hit the ground.)

the first combo against tager is labelled as a "basic Hotaru combo"; points to note are that Hotaru is normal hit, he lands after hotaru, and all he can do is iad.j.C, but if you start around the middle of the field, it seems like (on certain characters) you should be able to connect to Guren and get that wallbounce.

the second combo against tager is labelled "FC Hotaru combo", so as you can tell, it starts off a Fatal Counter. landing after the Hotaru gives you enough time to follow up with iad.j.2C.

the last combo, against Valk, is labelled "5C corner, character-specific, ene-combo" (i don't know what エネコン means, maybe some sort of abbreviation of "energy" and "combo"). the fact that this combo is labelled "character-specific", but the tager ones are not, makes me think the tager ones are not necessarily character-specific (or require some minor variation?).

... well anyways, that's quite a long post, but i hope it clears a few things up.

[Re4L14124c]

I don't play pad/analog, but I just go 1c5191a--in theory.

I input it like zreb does with the exception that I think of each move as distinct from the other.

Alright, thanks, I'll give both a try.

[Sophisticat]

... well anyways, that's quite a long post, but i hope it clears a few things up.

I'll give it a few re-reads, I'm sure I'll get it eventually.

Well, from what I can infer of the vids I see, the Hotaru is TK-forward like C. Viper instant burn kicks in SFIV. Annoying motion to get down if that's the case.

Also, how can you not land after Hotaru? I'm not aware you can IAD after it, just jump. ... I suppose this will have to be ascertained once CS2 hits consoles?

[zreb]

I messed with it on the PSP. It's difficult for me because of the 1000 framerate issues, but it doesn't seem that hard in principle. You can't really TK the hotaru because you can't do that in a way that puts you high enough from the ground to allow air dashing after its recovery (you can do this even if you whiff it). It's not because of the jump using hotaru gives you or anything and it's not cancelling. The only other thing that makes that part seem difficult is that 2c doesn't have very much untech, so you have to get the timing right for it or they'll tech/if you do it too early you won't get the air dash or possibly the spacing will be screwed up for the 66 j.2c (since they tech in the air from a normal hotaru as opposed to a FC hotaru where they tech on the ground). I was using 9214d since TKing was no go, but that also means you have to consciously do the super jump since normal jump doesn't move you far enough fast enough which felt like a bit much for me at first.

Beyond learning the timing though, it doesn't seem that hard?! I feel like I'd be able to do it after a few attempts if I wasn't having to deal with massive framerate stuttering.

Edited April 5, 2011 by zreb

[rtl42]

yeah i'm not 100% sure (haven't had any free time to myself on the BC2 cab around here, lately) but i don't think it can be TKed, you would probably be too low. i've tried it before, and got as far as:

2C -> (2?)9 -> (high) Hotaru -> air dash -> whiff j.2C

so it just takes some getting used to, imho. superjumping is probably necessary, i don't remember if that's what i did or not that one time.

i guess we've already sort of implied this by now, but one other thing to note (at least in the video) is where Hakumen is hitting with j.2C: if you look closely, you'll notice that he's catching the very bottom of the opponent's aerial hitbox to make it combo.

which reminds me, if you go to the video thread and watch those matches of Kakyuu's Hakumen durin A-cho's casuals, he tries this combo a bunch of times (and i think he gets it once or twice?), so maybe that'll also help give people some idea of how difficult it is in a real match, too.

[zreb]

Interesting.. Was messing with CS2 again and noticed Haku seems to have some sort of 5A 5B gatling going on. The weird part is I stumbled upon this hitting the RC button not realizing it was bound, so he whiffed 5B but then could go into 5A before it was finished recovering. I think 5A gatlings into 5B too? No clue if this has any meaningful applications, but I know he did not have these before.

Edited April 5, 2011 by zreb

[rtl42]

it's been in a lot of match videos, 5A-5B is good because i think they slightly altered 5B's hitbox to make it easier to hit stuff (although maybe that's just me), and you can combo 5B into Enma.

[SansProtocol]

it's been in a lot of match videos, 5A-5B is good because i think they slightly altered 5B's hitbox to make it easier to hit stuff (although maybe that's just me), and you can combo 5B into Enma.

You can combo 5B into Enma in CS1. However, now the timing is easier as you can cancel Kishuu => Enma sooner.

[rtl42]

sorry i didn't mean for it to come off as "hey guys 5B xx Enma is new in CS2!" but rather:

1) 5A-5B combos

2) 5B xx Enma works

zreb had wondered if (1) had any application, and since (2) works, my post was just saying that (1) + (2) = (3) 5A-5B xx Enma .

[SansProtocol]

sorry i didn't mean for it to come off as "hey guys 5B xx Enma is new in CS2!" but rather:

1) 5A-5B combos

2) 5B xx Enma works

zreb had wondered if (1) had any application, and since (2) works, my post was just saying that (1) + (2) = (3) 5A-5B xx Enma .

Oh, I figured that. Just had to make sure.

[zreb]

Right, I think enma slipped my mind cause it seems to be a mostly "do not use" thing when you can help it due to proration. :p (Or at least I don't seen it used too much in CS2 vids, especially when compared to CS1..)

[Spark]

Some stuff about CS2 Hakumen's strings:

On block: (Without IB)

(5A only seems to late chain to 5B)

(5A > 5B) 3F gap

(2A > 5A) -1F gap

(2A > 2A) 1F gap

(2A > 5B) 4F gap

(2A > 2B) 2F gap

(5B > 5A) -1F gap

(5B > 2A) 1F gap

(5B > 2B) 2F gap

(2B > 5A) -1F gap

(2B > 2A) 1F gap

Anyone know if I'm missing any other late chains?

[rtl42]

if you don't use Enma, what good combos are there when you have at most 4 magatama? i don't understand what's wrong with using a standard Enma combo, and i've seen lots of Hakumen players use it. it's only once you have 5+ magatama that other combos become preferable.

edit: sorry, i should say that if you're too far away enough from the corner, then Enma combos are probably good. otherwise, next to the corner, you have other options for less magatama, but that's still the same as ever, right.

Edited April 6, 2011 by rtl42

[WolfCrimson]

What does "-1" frame gap mean? That there's no gap at all on normal block?

[Spark]

Yeah, it means that on IB there is a 2 frame gap.

[zreb]

if you don't use Enma, what good combos are there when you have at most 4 magatama? i don't understand what's wrong with using a standard Enma combo, and i've seen lots of Hakumen players use it. it's only once you have 5+ magatama that other combos become preferable.

edit: sorry, i should say that if you're too far away enough from the corner, then Enma combos are probably good. otherwise, next to the corner, you have other options for less magatama, but that's still the same as ever, right.

Right, I suppose I just got kind of starry-eyed at all the new stuff that I forgot the value of enma combos in certain scenarios. It feels kind of easy to do so when I can't sit down and get real gameplay exp out of CS2 yet, so I suppose I shouldn't talk. :p

[Chsal]

What do I do with Hakumen when I have no stars?

Sit back 4C and j.C?

[GNkyrios]

regarding the hotaru on normal hit, heres proof u can combo it to j2C on a combo, its not a TK hotaru since u have to jump a bit so u can dash when it ends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WMO2LhU-2s

[ryokoalways]

Oh what the hell? They released it on handhelds first/already?

That's... really counterintuitive.

[zreb]

They said CS2 was going to be either free or stupid cheap on consoles, so my assumption has always been that it's backburner'd so they can cash in on the arcade/handhelds first. Dunno their actual intentions though, personal speculation!

What do I do with Hakumen when I have no stars?

Sit back 4C and j.C?

Generally yes, play keepaway--especially if you have a life lead. Can't do much with no meter. (This belongs in the general thread, tho)

regarding the hotaru on normal hit, heres proof u can combo it to j2C on a combo, its not a TK hotaru since u have to jump a bit so u can dash when it ends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WMO2LhU-2s

This was posted two pages back when we were actually talking about that. <_>

Edited April 8, 2011 by zreb

[GNkyrios]

oh, i guess i didnt noticed on what page i was at that time xd

[rtl42]

the only thing i want to add to the discussion on normal hit Hotaru is that i was able to check today on several characters (big and small), and it works:

j.214B -> ad.j.C |> 214A -> 66 -> 5A etc.

[Zerxion]

And if you extend that combo with a tsubaki somewhere, you can pretty much get the opponent into the corner from anywhere on screen.

[Re4L14124c]

And if you extend that combo with a tsubaki somewhere, you can pretty much get the opponent into the corner from anywhere on screen.

I would be pointing out that if you add tsubaki into a normal combo in CS2 Hakumen, you'd probably be using 5-7 stars for 6k damage, but meter gain is completely different now, so it's probably not a bad idea.

It's almost better than CS1 Hakumen since it wallbinds, but eh, I still feel reserved about putting so many stars into one combo sometimes.

[Blade]

Can some people give me some suggestions on combos from 2D/5D/6D based on anything beyond 4 Magatama? I can't get much damage off it anymore, even with Shippuu. Also I'm trying to use 6C corner floor slide more, but I'm not sure how best to do it without them teching.