ReynTime180 Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 We haven't explicitly discussed this. All I want to know is whether or not this is the deciding factor for you to attend the event or not. Genuinely curious I'm sure we'll discuss this in deeper length at another time, but to answer the question at hand, no, I would come regardless.
ReynTime180 Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I'll show up regardless, but in the interest of tournament rankings actually being reflective of skill, it should be all kokonoe or no kokonoe March monthly no items, kokonoe only, final destination?
Psykotik Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 We haven't explicitly discussed this. All I want to know is whether or not this is the deciding factor for you to attend the event or not. Genuinely curious In the (quite likely) event that BB makes into EVO, it'd probably be best to conform to EVO's standards and follow suit regarding the ban. If CP doesn't make it in, perhaps go with whatever the other majors are doing (FR, ECT, etc)? Just my 2c. Regardless of whether or not Koko gets banned, I'll definitely come over for Ultimate Mountain Adventure Day <3
pochp Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Yeah that's the current plan. I also like Dora's thoughts : http://t.co/cK201956w7 My personal current opinion is that although she's banworthy, the ban itself would do more harm than good. In other news, would you guys be hype for a Kokonoe only side tournament at the upcoming monthly? (Most likely Feb 2)
oDHAOSo Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Dora's points as I understand them : 1.Banning kokonoe will make fans of Blazblue happy. 2.There are Pro players who didn't care about Blazblue until kokonoe was released. This helps the scene 3.Banning kokonoe will make the Pro players quit Blazblue. This will hurt the scene. Conclusion . It's more important to have pros in the scene than fans in the scene. If you ask me, these pros are more interested in an easier ride to first place than the game itself... I think the scene should have a little more self respect when it comes to catering to pro players :-\
DerQ Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) 4. Pro gamers are very visible and influent amongst other players who might have not picked up the game. And also, the way you phrased is kind of circular reasoning. "Easier ride to first place" ? How is it catering to them? They're not pros because they get a free pass to get results when competing. You're not first because you're pro because you get a free pass to first. You still have to work to get there amongst others guys competing, no? If anything, this means more people being dedicated to pushing the game's competition level to as high as they can be. Realistically speaking, if you ban Koko at EVO, your preparation time is partly in jeopardy because of a rule to be added. This can affect whether we have international beasts flying in for the tourney or not. They're currently playing with Koko and Japan won't ban her if EVO does, so the value they see in EVO lowers drastically if they can't use it locally as well. So we'd lose competition currently willing to deal with it and play along. But it kind of defeats the purpose of a competition if you change rules because some people don't like what the character can pull off in training room. Or rather, why hold a competition for some people who claim they'd compete if the rules weren't as they currently are while you already have competitors in the current state of the game. Edited January 22, 2014 by DerQ
TD Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Hello everyone. Dora's points as I understand them : 1.Banning kokonoe will make fans of Blazblue happy. 2.There are Pro players who didn't care about Blazblue until kokonoe was released. This helps the scene 3.Banning kokonoe will make the Pro players quit Blazblue. This will hurt the scene. Conclusion . It's more important to have pros in the scene than fans in the scene. If you ask me, these pros are more interested in an easier ride to first place than the game itself... I think the scene should have a little more self respect when it comes to catering to pro players :-\ What you defined in the last bit is more of a tier whore than a pro. Sure, tier whores can technically be considered pros if they are naturally good (hence a pro), some people are motivated by other things, such as character love, game love, a need to stimulate their analyst natures, and so on. I actually agree with you, in a professional gaming sense. In terms of sales though, I am not sure which is better, or if either one has any advantages over the other at all, but I would assume the fans or anyone willing to put their money down on the game would come first. Kokonoe has been popular as far as I can remember, but I don't think anyone expected this amount of power to come of her. She could still be popular, but balanced and then unbanned. Hell, I want to play her and only dropped her because of how op she was. It's just not fun when only one person is having it.
oDHAOSo Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I'm probably coming off as to brash and naive, but I'll elaborate later tonight. One thing I want to bring up though is that I think letting one player get an indisputable advantage before the match even begins, is anti competitive. Yes attracting higher level players is important for growth but there has to be a limit... More on that later
Daisy-Fan Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 possible they can patch up soon about her. i find the black hole stuff pretty strong tho.
Linear04 Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 We haven't explicitly discussed this. All I want to know is whether or not this is the deciding factor for you to attend the event or not. Genuinely curious ive played bbcp twice in my entire life if thats saying anything
ReynTime180 Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I agree with Dhaos, if people are coming to Blazblue for the SOLE reason that kokonoe is in the game, I think THAT would hurt the scene, because if a bunch of people come in for one character, guess who they're all going to play? And although what I said before about next mashfest was a joke, that's what I'm really scared of happening to BB. It'll just be her all over the place with no room for anyone else. But DerQ, I also agree with what you said about EVO, Japan is a big part of EVO, having them there is a big part of what makes it the "world series" of fighting games. It's only hype because we give it value to be hype, and it delivers. But again, if people are ONLY coming for one character, then that's not really hype. Yes, we do need something to push us as players to improve sand get better, both in how we play and how we adapt, but that also comes back to fighting games competitive nature. If a Kokonoe wins EVO was it because that person was a the best player to attend? Or was it because of the character they picked, to give them a huge edge against the competition?
ReynTime180 Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Not to mention that you have to pay almost $10 to just get any practice against her and to try to figure out ways around her stuff (If applicable to your character)
Sophisticat Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I find Dora's argument(s) very compelling. Do we please the fans, or the competitors? Tough decision. But a ban on Koko is a competitive decision, and so should cater to competitors first and foremost. For this reason, I would be against banning Koko. If it does indeed turn out that Koko is, without a doubt, a notch above anyone else and shuts everyone down, then I would favour a ban. As it is, I don't. We don't have tourney results yet were she dominates the competition. It's too early in my opinion to make a stand either way. So I say she stays in as a ban would, on balance, negatively affect the community.
kirbster Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Kokonoe makes me not feel like putting effort into the game. I think her inclusion lowers the (competitive) value of BBCP. The character was out for what, 3 weeks? And got second place in Japan's first major double elim BBCP tournament lol. Even if it's not first place, it still says a lot (and it took N-O the god to stop her). Kokonoe makes the game feel like a joke. Like Valk wasn't dumb enough already. Just my 2 cents. That said I'll be playing BB at Foonzo tonight from 5 to 8pm so come at me lol. EDIT : wait I didn't actually comment about banning her lol. Technically I am for the ban, but that's just me being selfish because I understand how banning a character can negatively impact the general image of the game. My point is... She is already in the game, the damage is done either way. #ripbbcp Edited January 22, 2014 by kirbster
DerQ Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Yo kirb, I was curious since I never played Tekken tag team how his analogy standed https://twitter.com/BloodHawk_/status/425848990429487104 ive played bbcp twice in my entire life if thats saying anything I was expecting something more along the lines of yes or no. Never change Linear <3 (Not sarcasm btw, dead honest) Edited January 22, 2014 by DerQ
oDHAOSo Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 OK here is my deal; here is how I see things : As a member of the FGC, striving for growth is important to people. People who are at the top of their scenes don't feel as challenged as they previously did. They're looking for their next challenge. They're the ones going to tournaments to test their skills and discover new challenges. Better players are most suitable for this. I get exactly the same way whenever I'm winning too reliably at any game. The FGC as a whole is interested in watching matches by top players to learn new tech and get an edge in their scene. There's money to be made here. The money ultimately comes from diffusing high level matches. For high level matches you need high level players. Whether you want to level up or make some profit, you want to have top players around. So you seduce them. Give them honor, give them money, offer them a place to stay, that's fine, it's worth it. However there's gonna be some place where you draw the line. As an exaggeration, you wouldn't want a serial murderer playing in your tournament no matter how godlike he is. The line exists somewhere. One of the good and bad things about being a top player is that the bar of entry, skill aside, is very low. You don't need to be rich, or to get accredited, or to get a referral from an exclusive group. There are no standards or governing body for determining who gets to be a top player. And it shows. The FGC is full of stories of how top players have abused the trust of their benefactors. From collusion to ditching their matches, several top players fail to follow basic rules. And how do we respond? We make every concession and exception just to keep them around. The rules that would get all other players kicked out don't apply to them. This isn't fair and, ultimately, it's anti competitive. I hope I'm not the only one in thinking like this, but the most important reason fighting games are better than every other competitive game is that it's always very close to fair. There may be some bad match ups or certain pressure gimmicks, but generally the game never mechanically gives you an advantage over the other player (unlike mobas) . There's always a way to win or be beat. This fact is what motivates us to be competitive. Whenever we allow unfair advantages we are betraying our integrity. Arcsys made a bad call. CSEX was very balanced and so it was a very good competitive game. Weird balance changes in CP aside, everything is pretty much thrown out the window with kokonoe. Kokonoe makes CP a crappy competitive game. Some fans of Blazblue pretend that nothing is wrong with her overwhelming kit. Some just don't give CP the time of day. Some adapt and accept that kokonoe is pretty much the only viable character. Some (and apparently, most, if polls are to be believed) try and salvage it by excluding kokonoe from their experience. Players from the last group don't want to play unfair matches, or watch unfair matches, or watch their game turn into a single character game. This is why the ban is so strongly suggested. Everyone seems to be afraid of going all the way with the ban. I'm not aware of the exact ramifications of Banning a character, so if anyone wants to outline them, I'd appreciate it. As for Dora's argument, the type of top player that he wants to avoid alienating probably isn't the most beneficial to Blazblue 's cause. We're talking about players who didn't care Blazblue until kokonoe was released. Thinking about it logically, it's normal for pro players (people who make it their job to win and take every measure possible to win (this is a good thing in a competitive environment (CP + kokonoe is not))) to be attracted to kokonoe. Her tools shutout most other characters. But what about after kokonoe gets patched? Would they stay around? Kokonoe is our bait and switch to get people into the game? But what if people get exposed to the game through them? Are we really trying to sell people on the game in its current state? I think we can do better. Besides the whole Pro player appeal is starting to trespass on the top player problem I mentioned earlier. In the end, I want to play and watch competitive/fair games. Kokonoe is neither.
Bibiquadium Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 The word Kokonoe should be banned, so we don't have to hear crap related to her all the fucking time.
Sophisticat Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Agreed, this is getting annoying. She's no where near CT's top and we never banned those guys.
mAc Chaos Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Agreed, this is getting annoying. She's no where near CT's top and we never banned those guys. I dunno, plenty of people say she would blow them away. :V
Rhannmah Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 people who make it their job to win and take every measure possible to win I swear, if only Nini Heart was still with us, he'd be ALL OVER this character She's no where near CT's top and we never banned those guys. Indeed she's nowhere near CT's top, she's FAR above them. She individually has more tools than the whole CT top tier combined, and is better than them at every aspect they were individually best at.
raiyan Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 The word Kokonoe should be banned, so we don't have to hear crap related to her all the fucking time. amen
Sophisticat Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 Indeed she's nowhere near CT's top, she's FAR above them. She individually has more tools than the whole CT top tier combined, and is better than them at every aspect they were individually best at. Curse on block Ara into touch of death combo? Regardless, I'm bowing out. We've discussed this enough and it's not going anywhere.
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