Middle Tennessee Needs Gaming! Monthly Versus Tourneys - Antioch, TN

[Urichinan]

@Tret - As Jackie says, they probably won't be bringing it back. You don't reward a zoning character with defensive options because the fact of the matter is, if you get caught, you're playing the zoning character wrong. It's hard for people to catch a good Lambda blocking as is, then you have to worry about baiting a DP that's going to put you in a state where they can get mix-up. Like Jackie said again, that's begging for an S-tier character.

@Woz - Relius' normals are by no means bad. They have pretty decent frame data and the hitboxes on alot of his moves are really good. Maybe they aren't the best alone but mix them in together with Ignis and he gets pretty hard to deal with. As for mix-up, I can't remember everything he could do for mix-up but I remember safe overhead mix-ups with Ignis as well as Ignis being the main tool to get in on his opponent mid-screen, I don't see where you're saying he doesn't have mid-screen potential. Yeah Ignis dies fast, but that's just to keep him balanced. Can anyone honestly say Relius would be balanced if he had say Nervana's meter? He'd be stupid good. What do you mean he loses Ignis after teching a throw? Also, if he does lose ignis, that's just a well-balanced risk-reward for attempting a throw, I don't see this making him the worst character in-game, the other characters who are projected low-tier would cry to hear someone say Relius deserves that spot.

Also, i'm aware that damage output is not the key to a good character, but it does at least qualify him to be higher than those who initial damage output is relatively low and their ability to safely open people up is not as sound as Relius combined with Ignis.

This is actually pretty wrong. Lambda wasn't S-Tier when she had a DP, Rachel isn't S-Tier for having cat chair, Mu hasn't been S-Tier for having a DP, Axl isn't S-Tier for having a counter, Peacock isn't S-Tier for having a DP, Naoto isn't S-Tier for having a counter, Yukiko isn't S-Tier for having a DP, Noob and Shang Tsung aren't S-Tier for having many EX attacks with super armor on them, half of the zoning characters in SF have a DP and they aren't S-Tier. A zoning or long ranged poking character with defensive options doesn't make them top-tier, or even a good character.

People have also been jumping to conclusions thinking that just because the character is Nu, that means she's going to play like she did in CT with some minor tweaks. We don't know that for sure, and odds are she's more than likely going to be Lambda. In order for her to be even remotely close to Nu they would have to return her 5D and 4D jump cancels, speed up all the startup and recovery of her swords, make 5D combo into 4D, give her back the low sickle, and the faster startup on it, she would need Act Pulsr, her 5C would need to auto-correct, her damage would need to be higher, her Crecent would knockdown, or launch higher on CH.

If she is anything like Lambda then you won't need to worry about her becoming S-Tier. Lambda has very limited options from a successful mixup. Her TK can't be followed up without a RC, not even on FC. Her lows don't lead to any launchers without meter and 4B can only be used as a good overhead if you make the first hit whiff. If the first hit connects at all you can stand and block the overhead on reaction. It's a very weak overhead to use if you don't have proper spacing with the first hit. And if you do happen to land the 4B overhead, you can only followup with a short combo unless you have gravity meter. Her strongest mixups come from her Sickle > Empty Jump setups and even that doesn't grant her much except a little bit of damage and a knockdown. You can also jump the sickle when mid-screen after Act Parser B, which makes the only true setup for the sickle a 3C knockdown. And as you said before, if she's close to you then she's being played wrong. Meaning you would never get to use that oki. It's not much better than any other character's oki setups. Especially when you compare it to Mu, Litchi, Carl, Rachel and even Platinum.

Lambda is definitely solid, but she's not much stronger than your average high B-Tier character.

On to Relius:

His normals are pretty terrible. Unless you are as close to the opponent as possible, you can't confirm any of his normals into his only launcher. His 3C can only be used as a launcher if Ignis is already active. (Requiring you to have not only summoned her already, but you would have had to open the opponent up already. And that takes Ignis meter.) His normals also have a ton of pushback on them, which makes it impossible to confirm into knockdown from the tip of his normals. If you do 5B > 5C(2), even at point blank range, he can't do 3C. He has mediocre mixup potential, without Ignis, and in order to do anything strong she needs to be active already. The only way to get her out is to use one of her specials, which all have massive startup, aside from 214A. If you do 214A within 5A range, from any normal, he can be 5A'd or DP'd. None of his moves are safe on IB. (Except 2A and 5A) You can IB and DP through all of his strings, even most of the one's with Ignis in them. 5B/2B > 2D > 6A is the safest way to do an overhead, and that can be DP'd if you don't have Ignis hitting during his last attack frames. You can also ALWAYS DP between the hits of 2D, making the only safe way to get 6A out, also unsafe. He also can't gatling after his 6A, which makes it impossible to pressure after it if you go for a setup that makes him safe. (Ignis would be in recovery) You can also block his overhead on reaction (26f startup) and stop his entire pressure string. You could attempt doing 6A > 236C > 2D, but that can also be DP'd on IB or after 236C comes out. (2D would be too slow if used during the above series put together. There is also no safe way to use Ignis's highs and lows during pressure. You can always punish Relius for doing it.

All you have to do is crouch and react to his 26f overhead and he is completely screwed. His only, completely legit string is 2A > 5B > 6D > Dash xN. And that will not only kill Ignis, but also leads to the opponent getting a guard bonus. You can attempt a mixup during that, but then you will run into the same problem as I have posted above. Overall Relius has okay lockdown, but no reward at all for landing hits or doing a mixup. He can be punished during almost every attempt if the player has studied anything at all about his pressure strings. (Which I have, since I sub him)

On to his oki and damage output! His oki is sub-par mid-screen. It's easy to block and doesn't offer him much but another way to start pressure. His best oki tools cost A LOT of Ignis meter and often leave him with a very low amount of Ignis meter left to restart oki. His 3C is emergency techable, so you can back tech all of his oki setups. His 214C can catch back rolls, but in order to apply a mixup you need to dash or jump in as Relius. Letting the opponent forward roll out. 214C oki is definitely his strongest, and lets him apply the most pressure and catch the most roll attempts, but you need to have super yomi in order to catch it. You can also late tech and have 214C whiff completely. It also takes a 3rd of his Ignis meter to even do 214C, which doesn't leave you much room to confirm afterwards. If you are landing hits with him during Ignis pressure, by the time you do 214C she'll probably be down to less than half of her life. Which isn't good.

Another thing is that you can't use his overhead (6A) and end the combo with any oki or knockdown setup. The only way you can combo after 6A is to use Ignis or 236C. But if you want to use Ignis, then she can't be in recovery of anything. However, to safely do the overhead, she needs to be attacking, which in return makes it impossible to follow up 6A with an Ignis attack.

Confirming his mixups into his combos will only lead to two things: 3C and 236C. If you end ANY combo with 236C~214A or j.236C~214B it puts Relius in a bad position. If you use 236C~214A then the opponent is going to be all the way on the other side of the screen, Ignis will be in recovery and Relius has to try and approach the opponent. If you use j.236C~214B then you are going to be high in the air, Ignis is going to be in recovery and the opponent is going to have teched by the time you hit the floor. (Unless you have saved a jump for an IAD, in which case you will land next to them after they tech.) Neither of these are a good way to end a combo mid-screen, but in the corner they are pretty good. In order to end with 3C, the opponent has to be really low to the ground when you do your combo. Which not only takes away from your damage, but also can't be done from his 3C > 6D/2D combos. (They will get launched to high during the Ignis hits) The only way to get a 3C knockdown after 3C > 6D is to go 3C > 6D > 3C. But that requires you to do a late 6D after the 3C has hit them, which ruins your pressure string and makes it DP-able.

In the corner Relius is a different story, you can always get 3C enders and his damage is huge. But his unblockables all lose to late techs, wake-up DP's and even Counter Assaults. (You can never get his setups to hit at the same time without letting them escape during the startup of the Ignis attacks.

I won't lie, Relius does do A LOT of damage, but getting hits with him is near impossible to do while maintaining Ignis meter and leaving him at an advantage.

Also, I'd just like you to know that I tested all of this in-game while I was writing it.

tl;dr Lambda is solid, and a DP wouldn't make her broken. Relius is bad, but definitely has things going for him.

Hopefully I didn't get anything wrong while typing this. But from all of my testing this all seems accurate. Hopefully you understand as to why I think he is bad now. (Just as many, many others do) Although I'd like to hear what else you have to say on the matter, after all, everyone has a different approach and opinion on each character. :3

@Volpe: Makoto, Tsubaki and Relius are definitely the three worst in the game. And I think they all have an equal amount of pros and cons.

@Milln: Lol

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that Relius's only jump cancelable normals on block are 5A and 3C. 5A also whiffs on crouchers, which further hinders his ability to preform overhead mixups, since you can only get a jump-in mid-string using 3C. That also makes it WAY more predictable.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Urichinan

[Jackie Chandler]

Dude, I have no idea what Uri just said, but I'm inclined to believe him if he put that much time into typing that gargantuan wall of text.

[Urichinan]

Dude, I have no idea what Uri just said, but I'm inclined to believe him if he put that much time into typing that gargantuan wall of text.

It took me 2 hours to write and test all that stuff. Lol

[toanenadiz]

You guys have some good discussions in this thread.

[Starlight777]

You guys have some good discussions in this thread.

This right here. This whole conversation about Relius pros and cons was actually a pretty good read.

My problem with Relius is that if I managed to get through someone's defenses or start pressure, Ignis is already about to break. This leaves me having to cut some combos short or bailing right out of my own pressure. In CP they made this problem even worse by having Ignis meter decrease faster while idle. Relius piss poor mixup doesn't help things either.

He may have really good damage, but he has a whole laundry list of flaws that Uri just listed. It would be lovely if Ignis was as resilient as Ada.

[tret_tree]

@Tret - As Jackie says, they probably won't be bringing it back. You don't reward a zoning character with defensive options because the fact of the matter is, if you get caught, you're playing the zoning character wrong. It's hard for people to catch a good Lambda blocking as is, then you have to worry about baiting a DP that's going to put you in a state where they can get mix-up. Like Jackie said again, that's begging for an S-tier character.

I know that. >> That they took away its invuln frames and gave it fatal counter means it was clearly meant to be used to supplement spacing, punish a whiff/throw, or make a big flashy damaging midscreen combo, so it's quite good even without being a dp. If they were to give the invuln frames back, they'd prolly have to take away all its other benefits and it'd still be sketchy, not to mention a different move altogether.

...While I agree with that concept, though, why was it so overpowering in CS1 that they had to change it, in the context of how it functioned against other characters? Did it make the Lambda vs Ragna matchup 9-1 or something stupid?

The noob crutch is weak in this one, though, lol. I die to derpy approaches and blockstrings and all the time. @_@

[LastStarSaviour]

I see, then I guess I can understand where you're coming from. Most of my match-up experience stems from me fighting very few, other Relius players. While I will admit that I generally didn't know about most of what you're talking about, most of the times I got caught by one of Relius' set-ups, I had to block them. Could just be a bit of me not having a DP, and could just be a bit of me not having a few of the tools to deal with him at mid-screen and once he starts pressuring me. If I get a copy of the game I might go into the lab and test to see what I can do, but for the most part, Noel has trouble with him to an extent, from what I played anyways. With that said, I still can't see him being worst character in-game.

Also, don't recall saying that I thought she was going to play like Nu. I do think she has top-tier potential if she were to have a DP, especially one like gravity seed was. Lambda was high B-tier in Extend. Adding a DP to her roster would only up her even higher with a solid reversal.

Edit:

@Tret: I can't remember much about CS1, but I think most people who use Nu and DP in the same sentence are having terrible flashbacks of CT days. For the most part, Gravity Seed serves as a pretty good combo tool in Extend and it helps if you can measure where your opponent is going to approach to slow them down and set up mix-up.

Edited October 19, 2012 by LastStarSaviour

[floatwater]

This right here. This whole conversation about Relius pros and cons was actually a pretty good read.

My problem with Relius is that if I managed to get through someone's defenses or start pressure, Ignis is already about to break. This leaves me having to cut some combos short or bailing right out of my own pressure. In CP they made this problem even worse by having Ignis meter decrease faster while idle. Relius piss poor mixup doesn't help things either.

He may have really good damage, but he has a whole laundry list of flaws that Uri just listed. It would be lovely if Ignis was as resilient as Ada.

Hrmm, a bunch load of ideas came into my head just now. when i drop by later today i'll introduce them.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

I wish Thanatos was as resilient as Ada. . .

@Woz I didn't really know my shit in Blazblue, so I'mma take your word for it. I just remember how painful watching good Makotos struggle was.

Probably gonna go with Pyschonauts, Okami, and Shadow. Psychonauts because I've heard a lot about it, and Okami because that game is trippy and fun.

[Tophatmoffet]

I'm getting Shadow of the Colossus for my birthday tomorrow. What other classics might I have missed for gamecube and ps2?

Any of the katamari games, especially we <3 katamari. The persona games, but I'm pretty sure you've played those already right? God SotC is such a good game.

[Urichinan]

Volpe, you should get the Spyro, Ty and Sly collections. You should also get Monster Rancher 2 and 4, Final Fantasy 10, One Piece Grand Adventure and Soul Calibur 2. :3

Also yes, I'm just listing off some games I like.

[Bane]

I'll take a photo of my ps2 and GameCube collection and pm it to you for ideas, but off the top of my head; Killer7(ps2), any Katamari game, Baten Kaitos(Cube), Skies of Arcadia(Cube)... Any Nippon Ichi game for ps2...

This man has good tastes.

[Jackie Chandler]

My list of recommended PS2 games:

Tales of the Abyss

[Seiki]

Psychonauts was such an underrated game. It's really good. Also, Wind Waker. By far my favorite Zelda game.

After playing Bang for so long I feel like I need to switch to another character with a little bit more depth and substance. His simple playstyle of high/low has become stale to me.

I'm definitely going to main Hazama. His playstyle has a greater longevity in terms of discovering new things and also in enjoyment.

I can see myself never getting bored of mastering Hazama's movement with the chains, unlike Bang's high/low/throw conditioning gameplay.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Seiki

[Milln]

Volpe, you should get the Spyro, Ty and Sly collections. You should also get Monster Rancher 2 and 4, Final Fantasy 10, One Piece Grand Adventure and Soul Calibur 2. :3

Also yes, I'm just listing off some games I like.

First to ten $100 money match in Soul Cal, sir?

@Bane: my taste in games is refined. I'll post my abbreviated collection for Volpe later. You we t to sleep so fast when you came over, I couldn't show it off. D=

Edit: YO, where are those $50 money matches against Tad in Guilty Gear? My main man Tad gonna clean up with "Do What Ya Feel Like" style.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Milln

[LastStarSaviour]

So yeah....just dropped Mitsuru for Liz.....yeah.....

[M.i.E. Dax]

Yo good shit at the tournament yadda yadda yadda I'm terrible at post-tourney shoutouts so fuck it, I love all of you guys like the PS2 loves Ace Combat. Did I mention Ace Combat games on PS2? Cuz those are some good-ass games too. Get those. 4, 5 and Zero.

We don't talk about Assault Horizon.

God this weed is amazing my ass feels like a cloud right now just want y'all to know.

[Seiki]

I hope that BB gets something similar to the defense boost you get in awakening in Persona. Especially since it is a combo oriented game. I just hate dying to a 30% combo that ends with Carnage Scissors...

[Alphakami]

Ace Combat 4.

God this weed is amazing my ass feels like a cloud right now just want y'all to know.

Yellow 13 approves, and I wish I had what you had.

My lazy short shout list:

GA, you guys are awesome, and brought mad skill.

Ohio, nothing but love.

Alabama, great to see all of you again. Much love and respect.

TN

Papstr: Much respect for not giving an FCK all I need is U.

Klein: Happy you sent packing in GG

Milln: Thanks for the beer offer. Means much.

Woz: Child-beast. Jezus.

I really had more fun Saturday than I've had in years.

BB CP: Can't wait to play nerfed Valk.

Guilty Gear next week. Yes!

<3

[Urichinan]

I can't find anything new with Shadow Labrys and it's making me sad. =<

Her proration and move properties just suck too bad for anything new to be found combo-wise. And as far as setups go, I really don't think there is anything more to find.

The most I've been able to come up with lately is mid-Titanomachia burst baits that allow her to pickup the combo and still get the Titan > Brutal Impact ender. They're nice, but not very practical. I've also tried coming up with some mid-Titanomachia resets for extra damage, but these are also pretty impractical.

It feels bad bro.

I'll be happy when GG and CP get here, where it's a fresh start for me to be creative. :D

[Top_Cat]

Oh wow. I just realized that your wozscreamer from psn right? Idk if you remember me, but my psn used to be midnight9029 and we played and chatted in CT pretty regularly. I was a nu/rachel player then. I had no idea you lived in TN.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Nothing like grandparents to make you feel like a waste of space. . . But hey. . . I'm 20 now. I'll probably be able to get like 3 games or so, plus my friend's getting me a memory card/controller + Wind Waker for gamecube. Probably gonna just toke at a friend's and sail the cel shaded seas. I wished I had people to play in Gear around here. AI's no fun.

[Milln]

I can't find anything new with Shadow Labrys and it's making me sad. =<

Im Sorry, Woz. All I can say is keep looking and think outside more boxes. I find and think of more silly, fun, and worthwhile things with Yosuke every week. I don't think that Shadow Labrador Retriever has been completely and thoroughly explored quite yet, and even if she has, who cares? You don't need to find new things about your character or a game in order to improve. You improve by continuing to play.

Game's fun. Play it.

Guilty Gear next week, fellas. Four days.

[Urichinan]

Oh wow. I just realized that your wozscreamer from psn right? Idk if you remember me, but my psn used to be midnight9029 and we played and chatted in CT pretty regularly. I was a nu/rachel player then. I had no idea you lived in TN.

Yep, I remember you. I've actually known who you are for a long time.

I'VE ALWAYS KNOWN. BWAHAHAHAHA!!

But seriously, yeah, I moved to TN about 4-5 months ago.

[Hellknight10]

Volpe, you should get the Spyro, Ty and Sly collections. You should also get Monster Rancher 2 and 4, Final Fantasy 10, One Piece Grand Adventure and Soul Calibur 2. :3

Also yes, I'm just listing off some games I like.

lol you fraud

you have been dodging FFX forever now

n shit