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[Anne]

GG isn't perfect but it it pretty damn solid. The overall meta functions pretty well from my experience and what I've observed.

I think the argument on counters is more how Hakumen has to take moderate-high risk for moderate-high reward where as Yosuke takes a minimal risk for a moderate reward (resetting the neutral in you favor is good reward even if your mix ups aren't the best.)

Edit: Also, I personally believe Yosuke's mix ups aren't bad by any means, it might just be bad compared to Chie/Yu/Aigis.

Edit Edit: That's also not to say there isn't risk with Yosuke's DP, but you won't reliably be punishing it for big damage because of it's small recovery. Plus it's wonky hitbox let's get away with murder sometimes. For a counter it's reward can be slightly in favor of it's risk but compared to other things with busted Risk/Reward (Chie/Yu/Aigis oki and pressure, any button Mitsuru has, Teddie DP and other shenanigans) it's not too bad.

Edit Edit Edit: I don't want to call anybody wrong this is just how I see things practically. I love you all <3 xoxo

Edited February 20, 2013 by AnneIFrank

[Klein]

Okay, i haven't played Hakumen seriously since CS1, but I'm pretty sure if you land a counter in CSE you don't just automatically get a full corner carry, which is the only place where he has a respectable mixup game as far as I know. Maybe since CS2 Hakududes have found a way to do Tsubaki stuff midscreen, but without that, I'm not feeling the "Hakumen gets godlike reward off a counter that could get him raped by a CH combo" thing. I think his counters ARE really good, but not THAT good.

I also feel like you're really sleeping on Yosuke's mixup and neutral game, both of which he'd get after a counter, which shouldn't even be relevent to the discussion since Minion was absolutely talking risk vs reward in the counters themselves, not the aftermath.

[Astaroth136]

Isn't winning half a match technically going 1-2 instead of 0-2?

This is the best post I've seen in here.

Not cutting down those awesome long posts, but I never really thought about a round being that .5 factor in matchup numbers.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

My point about match-ups is exactly because they're just about data. We simply do not have enough strong players spread over the rosters in anime games to paint a clear picture of the meta in a timely manner, imo. Our ideas of tiers and match-ups take so long to reach anything even resembling a final product that it's pointless to give certain aspects a value because they're subject to change. This is different in games like SF where even in America we have enough players to make up for it, but when it comes to anime our perceptions of the game are going to evolve a few times before we feel that it's truly fleshed out.

You're starting to sell me on your point about r actions, but I still believe you can tailor your pressure to lock out dp mash or easily bait it out without losing momentum, at least with the characters off the top of my head. It's all about knowing the kind of person you're fighting and expecting when they'll disrespect you. The risk of dping comes in a less technical form and more of a mind-game form. Even if you do have to use pressure with holes with Liz, those holes are tiny and you can cover them up. Not with actual frame tight pressure, but by conditioning your opponent to respect it. DPs are easier than ever to do, but that also means they're going to get baited more. If Liz baits your dp, it's gonna hurt.

As for Gear, I'll readily admit that I don't know my shit. I'm just pointing out that I have watched videos of players like Satou, and it just seemed lopsided as fuck to me watching them put in so much work to get bodied. Anyway, I'll leave this point for further study.

Back to Haku's risk/reward: you haven't really addressed my point. My memory may be fuzzy, but I seem to recall overheads in BB being reactable with counters. Unless I'm remembering this wrong, this does the exact same thing Yosuke's counter does (minus the activating off of anything part): he removes cancel options and makes pressuring him effectively damn near impossible. It simply being high level play won't change the fact that you can punish overheads on reaction, effectively destroying their mix-up.

I mean, you can drop this discussion if you feel you should, but I don't see why. Only a blatant retard can't concede a point when they've been shown they're wrong, and I'd like to think I'm not that slow.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Kyle]

I dunno about Naoto vs Teddie. It always seemed 5-5 when I played it. >_>

but FUCK s.labs vs Naoto

[Urichinan]

I dunno about Naoto vs Teddie. It always seemed 5-5 when I played it. >_>

but FUCK s.labs vs Naoto

There are too many posts flowing into this thread all at once, I can hardly keep up. @_@

Let's change the subject for just a moment, check these out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvCEwHimGiE and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3bgiNkfffI

[Anne]

And that is why I don't play Skullgirls -_-

[ZomB]

I don't understand why people say "meh, matchup charts are meaningless." Yes, they are just data, but that's just it--they're data. They're reflective of the game, and ignoring them or not making/having them isn't going to make, say, Vanilla SF4 Sagat any less dumb. You can look at tier lists instead but they don't reflect relative strength as well and the same chars that are dumb as fuck on matchup charts are still going to be dumb as fuck in the top tier.

It's not that their meaningless, it's just they're a sum of opinions. One matchup might read "6:4" but maybe 3-4 players think it's 7:3 and one player thinks it's 4:6. You won't know anything about why unless you play it and discuss it.

I no longer play P4A seriously and have never considered myself a top player at that game, but this is exactly what I mean when I talk about experience mattering when judging balance. Example: back when I was recently showing someone the ropes on GG, they commented at one point that he thought bursts were total shit on that game. I explained that IMO it's the other way around; bursts in P4A are way too good. Comparison:

GG Blue Bursts - Slowish speed, very punishable on block, vulnerable to air throws for entire duration, doesn't knock down (opponent can tech and airdash back in before landing)

P4A Blue Bursts - Very fast, punishable but recovers instantly upon landing, cannot be thrown, guaranteed knockdown

It's not elitism; with experience comes perspective. Newer players don't see the problem with having moves that are +80 on block. They don't realize just how insanely broken Yosuke's counter is. They look at being able to literally mash a reversal WHILE holding downback is just a system mechanic. They have not been playing fighting games long enough to know just how problematic these flaws in design are since they don't have experience in prior games to compare to.

Is it okay for people who aren't playing Guilty Gear seriously to make comments on its balance then? There have been a few remarks like that which you've dismissed pretty readily. Most games I've played have had autoguard, I'd say it's weirder to have it than not to have it. To me, mashing out 623a during pressure is no different from pressing b+d. With how strong offense is in p4a I'm glad defensive options are "easy" enough for everyone to use. Also there are ways to bait Yosuke counter while not giving up pressure or risking getting hit. It's a good somewhat reliable move, but it can still be safejumped/triggered rising/crossed up and the risk reward is usually upwards of 8:1. If you want to argue that Labrys is terrible then you won't get any argument here, but there are a dozen other characters in the game.

One thing I want to make clear: I'm not claiming to be the best at P4A or even good. But to make such observations, one doesn't have to be, just as movie critic doesn't have to have actually made a movie if he's seen enough examples of good and bad filmmaking to be able to distinguish. That, and I tend to be EXTREMELY observant of system mechanics--if you poke around on DL you'll probably find posts where I've dissected certain subsystems or came up with ideas for new ones just because I think the concepts and reasons behind them and their implementations are one of the more interesting aspects of FG design. I always will gladly explain or back up my arguments; I'm not some baseless Internet troll.

For example, the problem with B+D: they can be mashed WHILE BLOCKING. For traditional dragon punches, there is a reason why they used 623 motions; because if you wanted to attempt a reversal out of pressure, you had to place a risk on yourself by ending your block. Games didn't have auto guard (where successive hits in a string/multihit move are automatically guarded if the first hit is), so if you took your joystick off 1 or 4 you were risking being opened up. In P4A, however, this type of risk is completely removed since B+Ds require no motion. You can hold downback and mash B+D until even a tiny gap appears and unless your opponent read your mash and completely stopped their offense to bait, you break out of pressure and get to start your own. "But wait, you just said you can bait their mash! That's fair!" Is it? Do you realize what happened here? The risk was placed on the AGGRESSOR, not the defender. The offensive player had to question on every gap in his string, "Will this be the one I need to bait? Do I stop here at the risk of throwing away my pressure for nothing?" Meanwhile, the defender held one joystick direction and hit two buttons at any point he thought the attacker was going to keep doing what he was supposed to be doing: attacking. Tiny oversights like this kill me because it could have been easily fixed by removing auto guard from the game and changing B+D to 6+B+D. (Before someone mentions, no, the attacker doesn't need to "tighten his strings." There is no infinite airtight pressure string in any half-decent fighter; otherwise the game would be broken as shit. See: Ivan Ooze fireball lockdown. Yes, I know there are a handful of exceptions in some anime games, but infinite pressure prevention being the reason why Guard Bonus exists makes that a moot point).

Regarding "weaker characters" in Gear: respectfully, this is evidence that you do not know what you are talking about. Look up videos of BLEED or Satou (Johnny), Limekey (Anji), or Ruu (Bridget). They have won tournaments using the three worst characters in the game. There's a really amazing set where Ruu easily goes toe to toe with his good friend Shounen, by far the best Testament player (the second best character in the game and the only other S-tier besides Eddie). This simply does not happen in P4A. Labrys was so bad there was discussion at one time on jBBS about whether she is even worth playing competitively. Labrys has never won a tournament and never will. The most trumpeted set of a Labrys player is the recent one with Bobu vs. that Yu, and the reason why Bobu is hype isn't because he's destroying the Yu, it's because he's not getting completely shit on quite as badly as is expected of his character.

Hama- is an incredibly strong player himself, as well. I'll refrain from commenting on gear, but I'm sure if you pit the best Anji against the best Axl, the Anji would struggle in that game as well.

The reason why counters are bad at high level play is because their risk/reward ratio becomes unfavorable against skilled players.

Favorable outcomes for Hakumen's drives in CSE:

- You break out of pressure and net ~2k and one magatama for your troubles.

Unfavorable outcomes:

- They hit you low when you countered high or vice versa and get a CH combo that nets anywhere from BnB damage (~3.5k) to big damage (~6k) depending on the opponent and their starter

- They throw you at any point during the counter for a free combo into average damage

- They bait it by doing nothing and CH your recovery with their best starter for huge damage (4k-8k depending on char)

At lower levels it's not a huge deal since they will likely get hit by the counter or be unlikely to optimally punish if it whiffs, but at high level that shit can cost you an entire round.

This is also why as a Hakumen main, Yosuke's counter seems extremely busted. Those drawbacks on his counter are minimized or non-existent:

Catches highs, lows, throws, projectiles, unblockables, IKs

LONG active catch frames

Tiny recovery on whiff

Microscopic recovery on activated whiff

Removes all cancel options from an opponent upon catch--they can't OMC, can't chain into a normal or B+D that might help them bait it, can't special cancel into a reversal to make it whiff, can't super cancel, can't jump cancel, NOTHING. It is guaranteed if you are its range (huge hitbox extending from his leg) and activate it unless the thing you triggered it with leaves you entirely invincible through it's long, long active frames on catch.

While the "trade-off" is that he can't get damage from it, he still gets to completely reverse the offensive momentum, which, considering how limited the options are for reading/punishing his counter and how it can more or less counter everything in the game, is way too good. Plus, he can mash it during a blockstring like all B+Ds, and with no high/low/throw guessing, the risk is nearly erased entirely.

Actually I think that's why debates like this are existing: the risk/reward ratios in P4A are fucked. Like, bad. You've got +80 on block shit on one hand and moves with triple digit startup on the other. Properly understanding the concept of risk/reward is something that normally can take years to accomplish, and P4A is probably the worst teacher of that concept since its risk/reward is all over the place.

I think I'm going to let this die for now in light of that revelation. To those who enjoy P4A, play P4A. Kick ass at it. I hope you do well. But remember this post a few years from now, when other fighters have come and gone and you have a strengthened grasp of the concepts mentioned here, and perhaps you will view P4A as I do.

Just because you didn't know who I was until late last year doesn't make me inexperienced.

[Milln]

Cookeville bros, can you get a head count of who's going to Final Round? I'm trying to understand exactly how many tennesseeans are going to that tournament. Also, don't forget there's that charity tournament thrown by DeathNapalm in Chattanooga. I can't attend, I've gotta work, but I'd you're not doing anything this Saturday help a fellow air dasher player with his senior project, eh? I'll buy you lunch in return.

People in my car: (Klein Naimat star) each of you bring a 4gb flash drive filled with music, we'll listen to it on the way down and the way back.

Again if you haven't registered yet, do so ASAP.

[Anne]

Do what we did going to CEO and just loop Guile's Theme in the car indefinitely.

[Eshi]

Two things Wes:

1) When you make posts that are a billion years long, it detracts from the quality of the content.

2) Your experience with Persona is colored by the fact that you play a bad character and regularly pit her against her horrible match-ups or don't adapt correctly to other match-ups because you never cared enough about the game to. I know how you feel. I used to hate Persona as well until I made some discoveries and realized that Liz isn't nearly as bad as I thought. But I can pretty confidently say now that your opinion of the game is completely skewed by negative experiences, it's not anywhere near as bad as you think.

[Klein]

Volpe: Yes, counters and even supers/dps can be used to basically invalidate overhead mixups, but most players don't have the cajones to try it consistently, especially since you can always IB>whatever as a safer option.

[Papstr]

All i know about match up numbers is everything is 8-2 for Cammy. Thank you based James Chen.

[mAc Chaos]

Two things Wes:

1) When you make posts that are a billion years long, it detracts from the quality of the content.

2) Your experience with Persona is colored by the fact that you play a bad character and regularly pit her against her horrible match-ups or don't adapt correctly to other match-ups because you never cared enough about the game to. I know how you feel. I used to hate Persona as well until I made some discoveries and realized that Liz isn't nearly as bad as I thought. But I can pretty confidently say now that your opinion of the game is completely skewed by negative experiences, it's not anywhere near as bad as you think.

Wait what. How is a big post full of quality information detracting from quality content.

[Eshi]

Wait what. How is a big post full of quality information detracting from quality content.

Because he's explaining everything like we're five years old and never played anything other than persona, instead of explaining everything like most of us are as good as or better than him at fighting games. it is condescending. especially when it's ended with this gem:

But remember this post a few years from now, when other fighters have come and gone and you have a strengthened grasp of the concepts mentioned here, and perhaps you will view P4A as I do.

[Tophatmoffet]

1k pages!

[Jackie Chandler]

And only a couple weeks away from the thread's second birthday. :D

[Skeletal Minion]

Wow, lots or responses. I'll address a few tonight and the rest maybe tomorrow or when I have more time.

First, I do NOT intend any pretentiousness in that last (or any) post. I already cleared this up with Eshi when I got home from work, but to reiterate, what I was saying with that last bit wasn't that "your experience must be this tall to ride the opinion coaster," but that amassing more experience definitely has the capability to change a person's viewpoint. How you look at things now might end up being completely different in retrospect. IMO, I feel P4A has a good chance of being viewed in hindsight similarly to how BBCT is now: people thought it was cool/okay at the time, but now many FG players can't believe they ever thought a game like stuff with curse on block, etc. was ever acceptable for tournament play. This even happened with me and 3S: a decade ago when I played it, I made the thought it was the ideal fighter, since parry could theoretically make every matchup 5-5. People who had been playing FGs longer than I had pointed out how it didn't exactly work that way, but my inexperience lead me to defend that flawed logic. Were their opinions more valid because they were "better than me?" No, but because they had amassed enough experience to not fall prey to that fallacious thinking; to realize how theory fighter doesn't always translate into reality, just as claiming "Well just bait B+Ds" is moot when that being a possibility doesn't alter the fact that the risk is still placed on the aggressor, which is poor FG design. The bigger picture must be looked at here. That being said, I'm not trying to be condescending when I make such analyses. Those who know me know my recent posts here are A LOT less colorful than when I'm legitimately arguing with someone being stupid, and that's because I don't think anyone here is stupid--I respect you guys, and if I didn't, I wouldn't be engaging in such stimulating debate regarding the finer nuances of fighting game design. Even the reason for that, for respecting your opinions enough to hear them out and put effort into formulating reasoned replies, regardless of if my own opinions differ... If nothing else I think that shows that I care about what you all have to say.

I mean, you can drop this discussion if you feel you should, but I don't see why. Only a blatant retard can't concede a point when they've been shown they're wrong, and I'd like to think I'm not that slow.

I don't think anyone here is being retarded, lol. We're all just having a discussion, and general meta/gameplay/balance/whatever discussion is always good IMO. So I suppose I'll stay involved for a bit.

Regarding Hakumen's mixup being strong or even good: no. His mixup is 2nd worst in the game behind Tager. This is for a few reasons:

- He is required to spend meter to perform overheads outside of 6B, which is currently uncomboable and unsafe on IB.

- His fuzzy guard is irrelevant since it's impossible to setup 99% of the time due to BB's ground roll system--they can always roll away or late tech. If you try to do it in any other situation (i.e., when they aren't knocked down), you are begging to eat an anti-air as Hakumen has no way to pin an opponent in place to set up an opportunity to force the into blocking a deep enough j.B.

- Tsubaki is uncomboable outside of the corner.

- Zantetsu is slow, telegraphed, and unsafe between hits against some stuff. Not to mention its proration is piss poor enough to make it a waste of meter even if you landed it--no matter what you follow it up with, it will not be optimal or even efficient.

- He has no gatlings except for As or Bs into Drives, which works about as well for pressure as you'd expect.

- He has no specialized methods of getting/staying in (canceling normals into dashes, Wind, big Ice Sword, Nirvana, etc)

- He has hops instead of a run. Hops that essentially hold up a giant sign that says "Please hit me into stupid face" unless you make them respect Hotaru and have meter for it.

His mixups are barely above Tager's, but that's not what makes him scary--it's his frame traps and throw game (which can condition people into getting hit by more rewarding stuff, namely Hotaru and Tsubaki). Hell, his high/low game from costs meter to merely attempt it. It has never been his strong suit.

I reference Guilty a lot as evidence to back up my claims because it often contains examples of the very things I'm advocating, which is why I like it. There are other examples in other games, but GG is usually the first that comes to mind since it's what I'm actively playing and enjoying. I'll be sure to use some other games as evidence when making points going forward.

Regarding Hakumen's counter being able to reactively catch overheads: that's no different than claiming "Oh, since overheads can be reacted to, you can just block them." It will happen sometimes, but is impossible to do every time. Not to mention attempting to counter an overhead is MUCH riskier than blocking it.

A lot of people are stating, "Well it's the character you play, it's your fault for picking a shitty character." As someone who enjoys her character archetype (high risk power char), I shouldn't have to make that choice. Having to perform a workaround to poor game design by playing a character style I don't prefer or enjoy is not something anyone should feel obligated to do.

I don't recall any notable Axl vs. Anji sets, but there's an amazing long set where Tsubu (best A.B.A.) breaks even or very close with FAB (best Potemkin). Potemkin is arguably A.B.A.'s worst matchup for several reasons (6-4), but Tsubu easily holds his own. It's a really exciting set if anyone here hasn't seen it, and the mind games are on a whole 'nother level.

About every fighting game starting out shitty: Yep. This came up in my discussion with Chris earlier tonight. I had a harder time thinking of exceptions than examples.

About everyone needing to be critical of what they play in order to better themselves at it: Yep. I've done long-winded breakdowns of Blazblue mechanics where I've torn them apart not because I think every game without those aspects is god tier, but because understanding the bad parts or parts I don't like helps me level up my game. Top players of any fighter understand their game completely, including the disagreeable bits, which inspires me to achieve the same goal they have. Plus, I really enjoy system mechanic talk, mainly breaking open or closely examining system mechanics to see how they tick, and why they do.

Regarding the horro stuff: NP! Klein, I'll be sure to pass along any creepy stuff I come across, lol. Speaking of which, have you ever been here? It's a relic from the AOL days, but if you can get past the atrocious layout, there is a plethora of fascinating stuff in there. I remember this place being where I learned what the Jersey Devil actually was (as this was way before Wikipedia and old folklore wasn't exactly something you'd find on an Encarta disc, lol).

http://theshadowlands.net/

[Klein]

Much obliged. If you ever want some horror manga, I can get one or two lesser known ones that are solid.

[Boom Cube]

http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/21/4012138/playstation-4-wont-block-used-games-says-sony

So I'm guessing PS4 is going to be the standard for the FGC if Microsoft goes through with their goofy threat to frog you in the cock every time the system boots up without an internet connection. From a logistical standpoint, I can't imagine TO's coming up with a way to work with that.

Insight edit: Although Sony could implement something just as crippling in the future. Still, the whole online-only thing mainly serves to take a bat to the used game industry's knees, and if Sony hasn't waged war on anything so dubious yet, I doubt they'd go out of their way to restrict users otherwise.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Boom Cube

[Astaroth136]

The 360 thing is only speculation. It would drastically hurt sales if they blocked used games, so it probably won't happen.

In fact, didn't someone on Reddit track the source of that rumor, and it was started by some joe-shmoe website? Could've been a blogspot and been more credible.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Astaroth136

[Boom Cube]

Oh, well, right on.

[Anne]

Most everybody in the journos circle agrees that Sony/Microsoft both want to implement these things, but nobody wants to be the one to pull the trigger. Basically, none of them are dumb enough to do it yet. A big prediction is they might let this console cycle play out similarly to the previous one and just push digital distribution more and more until that becomes a standard. Then, next gen (or late this gen) make it THE standard. Sony's PS store updates and pushes in Steam-like sales are evidence to this, and they're pretty good on top of that.

If Microsoft pulls the trigger on this and Sony doesn't (they won't at this rate) they're setting themselves back in the hardware space. Again, a bigger push on XBL and download services is probably more what MS has cooked up. Unfortunately, at this rate with MS I'm expecting a bigger push on apps and "all in one entertainment" type stuff which would make me a bit sad. A lot of the early promise of the last cycle turned into a billion useless apps, the cancellation of XNA and other indie support, and "Better With Kinect" by 2010. They're gonna play it safe, say "Innovation and Connectivity" a lot, and push digital without being intrusive. I don't want to go "blah blah casuals blah blah' but I figure that's the first word I'll hear when MS does their reveal.

The PS4 reveal was super hit and miss, I like a lot about their new infrastructure and new ideas so far. Everything looked promising, but it still seems a bit unsure. The games were mostly meh, a lot of safe calls. Media Molecule and having Jon Blow (this man should never open his big, dumbass mouth but he makes incredible games) shows more of what we got with the PS3 and it's impressive digital space. Hopefully in the next couple months it shapes up, but it's like Sony did the opposite of the PS3 launch which can really only be a good thing.

Just my thoughts on it, I didn't mean to go on so long but there's a lot of REALLY bad coverage/opinions of this stuff from less than respectable places people seem to cling to. As competitive players, we probably won't have much to worry about. The PS4 looks fine for what we do, and if MS goes absolutely insane, we still got the PS4.

Edit: another thing about the Sony conference is it's being talked about that it wasn't exactly aimed at consumers as much as it was to journos and other industry folk. It certainly came off that way.

Edited February 21, 2013 by AnneIFrank

[LastStarSaviour]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hBhdbohjjY

- Tsubaki is uncomboable outside of the corner.

Just going to leave this here.


P.S. This wasn't optimal by the way... Edited February 21, 2013 by LastStarSaviour

[Milln]

I believe this ten thousandth post belongs to me.