Planning mix-up / offense in Blazblue

[Pheenix]

I have finished getting used to Taokaka's moves and wanted to get into her basic bnb mix-up and pressure. I didn't want to just look up a guide, because I wanted to realize for my self what had been discarded and why, instead of simply doing what other people do.

So I wanted to make my own mix-up and went into training mode to see what I could come up with...

but as a former SF player, the amount of variables drove me insane.

How does one go about formulating his mix-up when there are 4 different rolls, air-dashes and shit? where do you begin? What moves are guaranteed when an opponent waking up has so many options? Maybe I shouldn't even be looking at knockdowns? I am so overwhelmed by the amount of possibilities in this game.

[Fenrir Werwolf]

Well, if you don't want to read a guide (that I think too it's a bad way to start from zero), and training mode doesn't help, the best thing to do is to play against someone.

Everytime you try something in pressure and so on, you can see it directly what enters, what is safe and what the enemy punishes.

I think that learning directly from a human opponent is a best way to grow.

Then, once you start to understand some basic and normal proprierties, you can start using again training mode, guides etc.

Oh, for the first times cpu can work as well..i think, but just to get confident about the game

The important thing is that slowly you have to take control on what you do and why. The first time will be mostly some mashing.

At least, this is my humble opinion :3

[Pheenix]

Simpler version: how does knockout (okizeme?) change when your opponent can roll? How do you cross up and opponent who can roll?

It is easy in 3d games because it simply becomes baiting or tech-traps instead. Is that how it works in this game? Just tech traps? So cross-ups are reserved for standing characters only?

Edited March 14, 2011 by Pheenix

[Rhiya]

Tech trapping/punishing tech on reaction

Example of one of the best tech punishes: with your opponent in the corner as Hazama, position yourself so that a forward roll would cross you up, and input 214214B on your opponent's wakeup. If they neutral tech, 5b comes out (which is +2), and if they forward roll, they eat Houtenjin into nasty damage.

Most charas can punish forward roll with a move that OTGs/has foot property, iirc, like Tsubaki 2b. Back rolls CAN be punished (although I think it's somewhat harder), but I don't remember any setups off the top of my head. Neutral tech is safe. Quick getup has no invul, so only do it if your intent is something like DP

EDIT: Pertinent data for the rolls:

Neutral has full invul for 32f, quick getup has no full invul, and forward and back have small full invul windows (through 3f for forward roll and through 10f for back roll). All techs have throw invul up until you can block.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos

[Fenrir Werwolf]

Simpler version: how does knockout (okizeme?) change when your opponent can roll? How do you cross up and opponent who can roll?

It is easy in 3d games because it simply becomes baiting or tech-traps instead. Is that how it works in this game? Just tech traps? So cross-ups are reserved for standing characters only?

That's one of the reason why I don't like BB D:

[Pheenix]

Thanks Thanatos! This makes everything so much easier. I can't believe I had forgotten everything about tech-traps. Haven't had a use for them since my very limited run in SCIV.

[Airk]

Tech trapping/punishing tech on reaction

Example of one of the best tech punishes: with your opponent in the corner as Hazama, position yourself so that a forward roll would cross you up, and input 214214B on your opponent's wakeup. If they neutral tech, 5b comes out (which is +2), and if they forward roll, they eat Houtenjin into nasty damage.

Most charas can punish forward roll with a move that OTGs/has foot property, iirc, like Tsubaki 2b. Back rolls CAN be punished (although I think it's somewhat harder), but I don't remember any setups off the top of my head. Neutral tech is safe. Quick getup has no invul, so only do it if your intent is something like DP

EDIT: Pertinent data for the rolls:

Neutral has full invul for 32f, quick getup has no full invul, and forward and back have small full invul windows (through 3f for forward roll and through 10f for back roll). All techs have throw invul up until you can block.

I'm actually a little confused by this; It seems to me that even using the option select suggested, you really can't just autopilot this - you have to REACT to what your opponent does. If you just spam this out immediately, and your opponent neutral techs, they'll be invulnerable and your 5B will whiff (Though you might have time to do something else); If your opponent backwards rolls (doesn't go anywhere, but whatever), then your 5B whiffs AND your opponent can guard by the time you've recovered. But if you wait any meaningful amount of time (more than 10 frames) and your opponent rolls immediately, they can guard your Hotenjin. So really what you're doing is inputting 214214 and WAITING for something to happen before you push B?

[Dusty]

Dusk explained it wrong, it's an option select and the input is, 236236B while the opponent is in the corner (assuming haz is on the P2 side while it's happening) if the opponent rolls out of the corner they will get hit by jayoku if they don't roll out of the corner, 5B comes out. Ofcourse the opponent could always just quick get up, roll REALLY late, or just not roll at all and punish 5B wiff, but Hazama will usually have time to recover and meaty the opponent. If you're really scared of getting hit for wiffing 5B, OS 2362363AB will work as well, if they roll out of the corner they will get hit by jayoku and if they don't you get barrier.

Dusk that really wasn't a good example of explaining oki or punishing rolls as Hazama is the only one in the game who has a OS that hits rolls (that we know of). The simple answer to his question is rolls are punishable if you look for them. Oki is not strong in BB but it's decent in the corner. If you get a knock down in the corner you can do a move early to pick them up off of the ground and combo (IF THEY ROLL OR DON'T TECH) for example Hazama's 2A, and still have time to meaty them if they neutral tech. That doesn't mean you can't punish someone for a roll in the middle of the stage, you still can, but it depends on what your character can do.

[Tachyons]

Okizeme in Blazblue is pretty weak compared to most other fighting games. Litchi probably has one of the more traditional okizeme just because her supers are fucking huge.

Generally it's good enough to stay on that ass on knockdown and react to what they want to do. Neutral/roll/quick tech is possible on just about every knockdown. Emergency tech is the closest thing you'll get to having 'guaranteed' knockdown.

If you want to have reliable mixups you'll have to know what moves can be canceled to what you want. For example you want to find moves that can be jump canceled on block to look for a left/right crossup. Tao's drive can be used this way.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Tachyons

[McArthur]

if you keep a safe enough distance, and know your char's side tech pick up move, then that will greatly imprve one's Oki game

[Rhiya]

Dusk explained it wrong, it's an option select and the input is, 236236B while the opponent is in the corner (assuming haz is on the P2 side while it's happening) if the opponent rolls out of the corner they will get hit by jayoku if they don't roll out of the corner, 5B comes out. Ofcourse the opponent could always just quick get up, roll REALLY late, or just not roll at all and punish 5B wiff, but Hazama will usually have time to recover and meaty the opponent. If you're really scared of getting hit for wiffing 5B, OS 2362363AB will work as well, if they roll out of the corner they will get hit by jayoku and if they don't you get barrier.

Dusk that really wasn't a good example of explaining oki or punishing rolls as Hazama is the only one in the game who has a OS that hits rolls (that we know of). The simple answer to his question is rolls are punishable if you look for them. Oki is not strong in BB but it's decent in the corner. If you get a knock down in the corner you can do a move early to pick them up off of the ground and combo (IF THEY ROLL OR DON'T TECH) for example Hazama's 2A, and still have time to meaty them if they neutral tech. That doesn't mean you can't punish someone for a roll in the middle of the stage, you still can, but it depends on what your character can do.

Look bro, you never, NEVER describe moves assuming P2 side.

And that was a perfectly fine example, and I gave MORE detail on how most charas punish roll than you did. If you want to say I'm wrong, don't bullshit. Show how I'm wrong.

[Urichinan]

Don't forget about vortexes either, almost every character that can run can do a vortex at certain ranges after the opponent has been knocked down. These are done by running forward and hitting 2A during the opponents tech, you will slide underneath them (Only on neutral tech) and get a cross-up and a free mix-up. If they back tech you'll normally hit them with your 2A, in which case you do a followup combo. And if they forward tech then you'll just whiff. These aren't the most effective of things, but can come in handy when you want variety.

[Overheat]

I accidentally crossed under using Run > Barrier O_____o

2B and 3C generally work as well, but then it depends on the character.

[Eshi]

taokaka has some decent tech traps. She can use 2B to catch back techs and cross under neutral techs. The thing about Blazblue is that Okizeme is much stronger in the corner for every character due to your opponent's wake-up options. Once cornered, effectively the only roll tech option is out of the corner, so you can just use a move that will stop forward rolls and recovers quickly on whiff to force neutral techs (like tao's 5B). There are few (if any) tech traps from midscreen which can stop both forward and backward rolls, so you have to choose one.

There are also alternative situations for offense, like air tech traps. And keep in mind that, as a Taokaka player, you have very strong keepaway and neutral game against much of the cast, so it's not the end of the world if you can't force okizeme situations.