[CS2] Mu-12 vs Tsubaki

[Airk]

There's no question about it, Tsubaki would lose straight in that instance, with the application of Advanced Input hitting an effective 5f punish window is far from challenging.

It's not a question of INPUT. It's a question of the fact that it takes 10 frames for Origins to HIT and if she's just holding block, I don't know whether her being able to block on the 10th frame means she blocks, or she gets hit. Basically, your move hits on the same frame she is able to block on if that's what she does.

This is more applicable to moves that have a huge window of active frames, Tsubaki's 236 series being a rather unique case in that, for the vast majority of moves in BB, the previous explanation is very applicable. I provided a simplified exegesis of how the recovery system works in BB, but more specifically after the first active frame that connects, the rest of the active frames become additional, added recovery frames. Tsubaki's 236c, hitting on the very last active frame, would retain it's 22 frames of blockstun, but only have 19 frames remaining of recovery, effectively making it +3, the frame advantage calculations in the frame data is based off the closest possible 236c, hitting on active frame one.

This is absolutely NOT what you said last post. You very clearly said that blockstun doesn't start to deteriorate until after the last active frame, and that's just not true. What you just said THIS time is correct, and in fact, what I said in the first place.

I think you're missing my point, if you DP even once in a blockstring, Tsubaki has to consider the possibility of baiting it. Because Tsubaki lacks the presence of a resource free, late gatling, a good example being Hazama 6b or Ragna 2c, she is forced to end her pressure in a disadvantageous way in order to bait it.

-2 isn't really a very large disadvantage. Certainly, it doesn't mean anyone gets out 'for free'. Also, if you're going to mention Hazama's 6B, Tsubaki's 6B works exactly the same way - it has a large startup, which means it can theoretically be IB > DP'd (just like Hazama attempting to Gatling to 6B). Ragna's 2C is nice and all, but assuming your opponent was barrier blocking, you're not going to be in range to use it.

Charge cancelling ends her pressure completely, she's minus. Of course you wouldn't be mashing DP after every normal in a blockstring, that's just not realistic. Proper application of buffering the input then activating the special on reaction to the additional normal is the appropriate way to approach the situation.

More relevantly, you shouldn't be mashing DP after 6A unless you really believe Tsubaki is trying to bait you to mash, which is... just a dubious decision. There are definitely places to to try to DP her, and that's not one of them unless you've spent a lot of time and life 'training' her to do this by jumping out and getting hit by delayed gatlings.

All of Tsubaki's options to bait the dp let her opponent out for free, or expend a valuable resource such as heat or stocks. Therefore, if you're smart with your DP and wary of her pressure, you can capitalize on their hesitation to pressure you by jumping out, jabbing, or whatever the most applicable choice would be.

True of just about every character, but a baited DP is much worse for you than her getting hit with your DP is for her. But yes, asserting the threat of the DP means your opponent has to get tricky. This tactic is referred to as "playing fighting games." It doesn't mean it's 'free'.

[C0R]

Yes, it is free. Ending in a minus position is the end of pressure. Failure to capitalize on this fact from the perspective of the defendant is not optimal play. Optimal play is what we consider when weighing matchups. Tsubaki cannot bait Mu's DP without effectively ending her pressure or expending a resource, whereas there are places where Mu can safely buffer the DP motion due to the fact that Tsubaki cannot drive cancel certain normals, the relevant one being 6a.

I can respect your arguement to a degree, but I feel this needs to be the end of discussion.

Edited July 3, 2011 by C0R

[Airk]

I can respect your arguement to a degree, but I feel this needs to be the end of discussion.

I concur.

Additional notes though:

Tsubaki actually can't drive cancel most of her normals. Far more are uncancellable than otherwise. The only ones that can be drive cancelled and actually gain anything from it other than confusion value are 5C and 5CC, so those are the ones to watch for the charge cancel on.

Depending on spacing, Tsubaki may be able to restart pressure from a slight disadvantage with 5B simply due to positioning, so choose your responses post failed bait carefully.

Tsubaki probably has more ways to bait your DP than other characters, who don't have access to a D-cancel equivalent for their special moves. (D-cancelling being cancelling a blocked/whiffed special into a D-button special.) The one you really need to watch out for is cancelling into 214D, which has lots of head/body invulnerability.

[SolarMisae]

This matchup...I can't tell if it's good or bad but it seems like she has an answer to a lot of our shit. She runs right past explosions, and it feels like she doesn't have to respect Totsuka or Habaya all that much either...well timed 214x can cut through a lot of Mu's stuff it feels like. Plus a lot of her midscreen BnB knockdown stuff will toss you full screen and she'll be on you in a second...

I honestly think my wins these days are coming from getting away with things I shouldn't be getting away with versus her...

[Aginor]

Bait out 214 series. habaya actually really hinders tsubaki. It's in Mu's favor for sure. Tsubaki DP is fairly useless too. I've discussed it over with Ginseng after playing him a lot and Tsubaki has to take a lot of risks to just get in and stay in against Mu. Once Tsubaki respects Mu dp, you can get out for free if you know Tsubaki will respect it since you can start pressure again. Btw, all the wall carry stuff and damage she does is all she really has against Mu. If you know tsubaki is approaching through the air, you can just AA and get them blocking again. If it's from the ground, you can zone with 5c. Btw, stein lasers > tsubaki 236 series. Oh yea I also forgot, watch out for Tsubaki 2b otg gimmicks. Those will probably get you if you're not used to it.

[SolarMisae]

Thaaaat makes me really happy. xD Thank you Agi. ^^

[Airk]

Bait out 214 series. habaya actually really hinders tsubaki. It's in Mu's favor for sure. Tsubaki DP is fairly useless too. I've discussed it over with Ginseng after playing him a lot and Tsubaki has to take a lot of risks to just get in and stay in against Mu. Once Tsubaki respects Mu dp, you can get out for free if you know Tsubaki will respect it since you can start pressure again. Btw, all the wall carry stuff and damage she does is all she really has against Mu. If you know tsubaki is approaching through the air, you can just AA and get them blocking again. If it's from the ground, you can zone with 5c. Btw, stein lasers > tsubaki 236 series. Oh yea I also forgot, watch out for Tsubaki 2b otg gimmicks. Those will probably get you if you're not used to it.

So... basically "bait the 214 series and do a lot of stuff that gets beat by the 214 series"? DP? Loses to 214. Habaya? Loses to 214 (only "really impairs" players who aren't used to it.) Zone with 5c? Loses to 214. Basically everything Mu does except 2A, 2B and 3C loses to a properly timed 214 if Tsubaki is in range (Roughly Mu's 6C range.) If you can keep her at fullscreen, she'll need to use a charge to cancel 236B/C/D into 214D, but it'll still get past almost anything you stick out.

Tsubaki should basically never approach you from the air, it's just asking for damage since your air options are so much better than hers. On the other hand, in a ground footsies game, Tsubaki's 5B is way better than your 5C - it comes out faster, recovers faster, and doesn't extend her hitbox forward the way Mu's 5C does. In terms of staying in once she gets in, she doesn't have it any harder than anyone else, being posessed of fairly tight blockstrings and more options for safety than most characters thanks to charge cancel and D-cancel.

This is one of those matchups where whichever player gets hold of the momentum first is very likely to win the round. Tsubaki has to take some risks to get in, but Mu has to take risks to keep her out. Even.

[SolarMisae]

You see thats what I noticed too which is why I wasn't sure if it was a good or bad matchup. When I win I win but when I lose I get BODIED. It does feel momentum based...whoever gets the first knockdown is gonna have an easier time.

I don't feel qualified to talk about matchups...however it feels really close. It does feel like either character can take it at any time, and I fight this matchup frequently...

[Aginor]

So... basically "bait the 214 series and do a lot of stuff that gets beat by the 214 series"? DP? Loses to 214. Habaya? Loses to 214 (only "really impairs" players who aren't used to it.) Zone with 5c? Loses to 214. Basically everything Mu does except 2A, 2B and 3C loses to a properly timed 214 if Tsubaki is in range (Roughly Mu's 6C range.) If you can keep her at fullscreen, she'll need to use a charge to cancel 236B/C/D into 214D, but it'll still get past almost anything you stick out.

Tsubaki should basically never approach you from the air, it's just asking for damage since your air options are so much better than hers. On the other hand, in a ground footsies game, Tsubaki's 5B is way better than your 5C - it comes out faster, recovers faster, and doesn't extend her hitbox forward the way Mu's 5C does. In terms of staying in once she gets in, she doesn't have it any harder than anyone else, being posessed of fairly tight blockstrings and more options for safety than most characters thanks to charge cancel and D-cancel.

This is one of those matchups where whichever player gets hold of the momentum first is very likely to win the round. Tsubaki has to take some risks to get in, but Mu has to take risks to keep her out. Even.

I'm sorry but do you even know how to bait moves? Do you even know what bait MEANS? Of course I know those moves lose to the 214 series. I've played this match up enough to know. You never even CONSIDERED the case when tsubaki has NO CHARGE.

Tsubaki 5b is not better than Mu 5c. I don't know where you got that from. Even though Mu extends her hitbox with 5c, the range on that is WAY LONGER than tsubaki 5b. Plus mu 5c can go into a combo much easier than tsubaki 5b unless it's point blank range. Btw, as long as you do 2b in the middle of a blockstring, you aren't safe. "Doesn't have it harder than anyone else" You mean she has a DP that doesn't do anything unless you use the D version. So if you bait Mu's DP, she gets out for free.

Tsubaki has to take way more risks than mu. The only risk mu has to take is whether or not to DP once tsubaki is in. But seriously, go learn your basics before you reply. Go learn the aspect of "neutral game". From what you just told me, you are not very credible at all.

[C0R]

So... basically "bait the 214 series and do a lot of stuff that gets beat by the 214 series"? DP? Loses to 214. Habaya? Loses to 214 (only "really impairs" players who aren't used to it.) Zone with 5c? Loses to 214. Basically everything Mu does except 2A, 2B and 3C loses to a properly timed 214 if Tsubaki is in range (Roughly Mu's 6C range.) If you can keep her at fullscreen, she'll need to use a charge to cancel 236B/C/D into 214D, but it'll still get past almost anything you stick out.

2b is Mu's best poking tool, it has the short recovery, low startup, and leads to gapless, safe strings at max range that also autoconfirm into SoD if the poke lands. It's impact in this specific matchup is far from contestable. The other attributes of Tsubaki's 214x series are also important to consider, such as the long startup, Tsubaki isn't going to catch Mu's 5d jump cancel in neutral. The moves also don't become invulnerable until later in the startup, so unlike Noel's 5d, which can be used reactively to slower pokes such as Mu's 5c, Tsubaki is only going to win in neutral with the special if the Mu player makes a rather risky or inaccurate decision. Anything that 214x would beat on the ground is out-shined by the speed and size of Tsubaki's 5b, which is a much more appropriate tool in Tsubaki's neutral game regarding this matchup.

I will say that this matchup is 5.5 in Mu's favor, with her superior damage output and larger ability to capitalize on momentum. Mu's reward for choices in neutral, offense and defense are comparitive, but nearly always in her favor, if by a slight margin.

[Airk]

Let's keep it civil please, gentlemen. I'm not here to insult anyone, nor to be insulted.

I am aware of what it means to bait something - though I think you are using the term inconsistently, because you say "When you bait Mu's DP she gets out for free" when that's actually the opposite of what happens when you successfully bait something. I'm also aware that you didn't really give any advice on how to bait 214X - you provide a bunch of behaviors that will lose to 214, which I suppose can encourage your opponent to use it, but it's a fairly painful way to establish conditioning. You also don't give any info on beating 214 (C0R's info on the value of 2B is not something you mentioned or I had considered) - it's not actually punishable unless you IB (which would be good information to have) though you have frame advantage if you do.

You're right though - I misremembered the range on 5C - that's entirely my fault. I don't really see how Tsubaki's so-so DP is a factor in her having it any harder or easier on the offense, or in terms of baiting your DP. It's also more-or-less adequate for breaking out of pressure strings. Even if it trades, the situation resets to neutral.

The risks Mu takes are all going to be in the midscreen range - she has a lot of pokes and defensive measures she can take, but they are all countered essentially the same way; 214X - which works just fine without charge so long as you choose and time appropriately - is most useful just OUTSIDE the range of 5B; Inside 5B range, you'd be foolish to use it, as C0R points out. However, once Tsubaki is inside 5B range, she doesn't really need the 214 series anymore. There is definite risk for both parties in the midscreen area, where Tsubaki has the option of dashing in, which will lose to most of Mu's pokes/zoning tools but will put her in a strong position if Mu doesn't stop her, staying outside which will potentially allow her to be 'zoned' by 5C, jump, which beats 5C, or 214 probably B or D, which will beat the majority of tools Mu will go to at that range. Yes, there is startup, but that's actually mostly irrelevant if you can not get hit for the 8-10 frames before the invulnerability kicks in. Essentially, 214B, done at roughly the same time or a little after the opponent, will beat moves with more than 10 frames of startup, because they will whiff through the invulnerability and still be recovering when the startup period ends. Yes, it's not a reversal ala Noel's drives, but it's quite strong under the right circumstances, and stronger if there can be charge to back it up.

I'm not super familiar with Mu's damage output though - all I've really seen of her in various videos is the sort of average 1.5-2.5k midscreen, 4kish in the corner, lots in the corner with an unlikely starter stuff that the whole cast has, and that's not really a big advantage over the damage Tsubaki does. So I guess I'm just not seeing this even really adding up to a 5.5.

[C0R]

Mu gets more in the corner off of weak starter mixup than Litchi does off Daisharin. Her midscreen damage with meter is comparable only to Hazama and Rachel 2c combos.

Her damage output is top teir, to say the least.

Now, see, thing is; If I was to use a similar logic for Mu's side of things...

Mu can beat 214c in neutral by simply backdashing it during then startup, then punishing the whiff with 6c FC for a million damage midscreen, seeing it's in CH state for more than enough time. Therefore, if you're at a range where only the C version would be effective, just backdash and mash 6c if you see them whiff during the backdash animation. If she hits you, ah well you take maybe 4k. If you hit her, she takes double that, so it's well worth it to make the guess.

I would never suggest this to someone. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's very accurate, it's just not pragmatic. Of course every character has an answer for every sitation, but nitpicking at RPS will obscure what this discussion has been created to accomplish.

Yes, the 214 series will beat some of Mu's pokes, so will Tager's 360a, as will Hakumen's 6d. This does not mean those are viable options, partially because if you can accurately predict your opponent's neutral game to that degree, you won't need to use such risky options to win due to your understanding of your opponent. What's important to consider in Matchup discussion are things that are out of the player's control, not things that are. Things like, does the character have a DP, does the character have a reversal with meter, is their damage output higher, are their pokes longer, are their normals faster, do they have more overheads, do they get more damage off throws, is their average ending frame advantage higher, do they run faster, can they run...

Ideally, matchup discussion should never be about Rock Paper Scissors, and I would appreciate it if we could avoid it. X beats Y, Y beats Z and Z beats X turns it into a guessing game, something fighting games always strive not to be.

[SolarMisae]

Oh, another note on this matchup. Origins > Tsubaki 6A, 22D unblockable setup. Just neutral tech and DP as soon as you're able to and it'll beat it out and get her off you.

Edited July 29, 2011 by SolarMisae

[Airk]

Oh, another note on this matchup. Origins > Tsubaki 6A, 22D unblockable setup. Just neutral tech and DP as soon as you're able to and it'll beat it out and get her off you.

It MIGHT be possible for Tsubaki to space the 6A in such a way that Origins will whiff - I know that 22X can hit from outside the range of origins, but I don't know if Mu's 'prone' hitbox is big enough for the 6A to land and leave Tsubaki far enough away. Something to try in practice mode and see which combos leave the spacing right.

[Aginor]

Only way to make mu DP whiff is to hold the 22d charge, hope mu DPs early, and perform tsubaki 6a at max range! Which doesn't seem like it'd be wise to do a 22d unblockable after 6a.

Let's keep it civil please, gentlemen. I'm not here to insult anyone, nor to be insulted.

Please give people advice they can actually use that's practical. I'm not kidding on this either.

You also don't give any info on beating 214 (C0R's info on the value of 2B is not something you mentioned or I had considered) - it's not actually punishable unless you IB (which would be good information to have) though you have frame advantage if you do.

I was NEVER looking to punish tsubaki's 214 series. Sure it'd be nice if I could punish it but if I didn't IB and I just blocked it, momentum is with me again. If you look at the frame data she's -5 on block. I get to pressure tsubaki unless you DP but that's besides the point. If you throw out any other move besides DP if I blocked the 214 series on the ground, tsubaki will get CH'd.

[pochp]

Can't tsubaki cancel her 214 series into 22D? Just wanted to point that out because our local tsubaki likes to finish blockstrings with moves that are bad on block and suddenly cancel into 22X for a CH combo. Or at least I think that's what he's doing. So I deal with tsubaki's pressure kind of like against DP happy jins, back off, be patient, only take advantage with normals when they can't cancel (ex: whiff).

So far, gold burst has done me a good job of getting out of 22D setups with a pretty decent reward.

[LunarSelenia]

It was really just something that Solar and I saw and tried out after watching oboron vs. BLOOK, but it's a fact that Mu can DP out of her 6A Unblockable setup. But it seems too situational to have a combo that'll leave you in the optimal position to have Mu whiff her DP and 22D hit. It feels like its possible, but at the same time it feels VERY situational, corner carry enders will usually leave you in that spot where BLOOK took that DP hit.

Origins > 6A Unblockable. That's the fact.

The situational part (Finding combos that'll let 6A hit at max range) is probably right, but C0R stated earlier we wanted to avoid things like this in the matchup section. Doesn't make the statement wrong/false, but it's nitpicking at the situation.

Then again what do I know, I'm technically not a good Tsubaki ._.;;; but this is my 2 cents worth...

[SolarMisae]

You don't have to be an amazingly good player to know how stuff works. It's truth that Mu can DP out...and yeah there are ways around it. But again, theres no real need to list absolutely every possible given situation to try and figure out if this ONE THING is a good idea or not. Fact: Mu can DP out of Tsu's 6A unblockable.

The main point is NOT that it's "100% safe and foolproof" but that it's an option. And a good one at that.

Edited July 30, 2011 by SolarMisae

[Aginor]

pochp: Yes. At that point, just play the player. And yea, gold burst is a good answer to unblockable 22d setups. If it's a spaced unblockable 22d, you have the option of backdashing as well except in the corner obviously. Lastly, if the Tsubaki doesn't go for a 22d unblockable, the situation is reset to neutral with the pushback that is created imo.

I know this is pretty general for a match up thread but I feel I have to say this in this thread:

Pretty much we don't want to list out every possible situation and tell you the answer. There's just too many situations to account for. I just state things that are practical and things that should be done given reaction, reads, and different general situations (risk vs. reward). I feel as long as people have a general strategy, they should be able to perform well in a particular match up. Stuff that should be listed are options that should be practical.

[Airk]

The 'safe' answer to the 6A > unblockable setup is, I believe, to just not quick tech; If you just don't push any buttons, you don't tech, you stay on the ground, and 22D hits you but doesn't really do anything because I think it prorates as part of the original combo or something - this is how I've been seeing various Japanese players deal with that setup. The downside it doesn't get you out of the corner, but the upside for you is that Tsubaki just more or less 'wasted' a charge. An 'empty' 6A might be able bait the DP,but the whole thing is probably slow enough that you can just DP on reaction to the 22D charge - the timing for the DP is pretty precise, but you have the opportunity to see the charge for a moment before you have to stand.

Backdash is a valid option for avoiding 22D stuff, but honestly, you won't see those happen midscreen very often - it requires another charge to follow up unless you get the corner bounce. Really though, the whole trick to dealing with any of Tsubaki's 22D unblockable stuff is to be watching for them - neutral jump beats a 22D unblockable 'reset' for a jump in combo, but you have to be alert for it the same way you need to be alert for someone throwing an overhead into their blockstring for a reset. Vs almost any character, at least half the battle is knowing what their options are and how to beat them... while knowing that they know you know.

Oh, and lastly, yeah, it's not just 214 but also 236 that can cancel into 22D - makes for great fun with Hakumen players who try to counter your 236C. :P

[SolarMisae]

The only character who can really reliably backdash Tsu's 22D stuffs (easily anyways) is Tager. He can quick tech and then mash backdash the second he recovers. Mu's backstep is good but the timing on it is SUPER tight. Luna and I tested different ways of escaping it and Mu's backdash is real hard to use reliably to get out of it of you're in the corner. If you're gonna do something DP is easier and better. But yeah, the easiest braindead option would indeed be to just not tech, but then Tsubaki gets to mix you up again afterwards... and in the corner is the worst place for Mu to be. I think the best option (maybe not the safest or easiest) is to DP it, because it gets her off of you, sends her away and resets neutral, and gets Mu out of the corner. As Mu, if you have an option to get her off I see no reason you shouldn't if you can.

Edited August 1, 2011 by SolarMisae

[YukiBlue]

If Tsubaki couldn't do that usain bolt across the screen. Many swear words would of been kept inside my mouth.

[SolarMisae]

Throw out more Habaya. It'll scare Tsubaki from using the 236x series. If you've got a stein out blow it up if you're fast enough to do that on reaction.

[StarGazer]

its seems i can take the momentum easily but once i lost it things go nasty so i dp my way out like a boss :p

keeping her uncomfortable on the ground and doing fast horizontal lasers is serving me right until now

[SolarMisae]

Lots of Habaya and Totsuka from fullscreen works real well. Just don't be predictable about it and space right. If you don't she'll 214x through Habaya/SoD stuffs real easily and you get CH. Don't get over confident with DP'ing out all the time cause smart Tsu's will start baiting it. IB > backdash can be useful for getting out of her pressure if you're not in the corner. CA is also your friend in this matchup.

Don't approach her from the air, she's got stupid good AA options. SPACING is super important versus Tsu. Her everything is faster than yours so if you're not spaced right you will get poked out for sure. Don't try to set up more than one stein at a time unless you knock her down, and don't bother with Habakiri in neutral. Don't send out Totsuka unless you're a decent distance away cause she is fast and can run up and jab you out before the laser starts. Learn the range on her 5B and stay OUT of it in neutral. If you do that right 5C will beat it out every time.

Edited August 1, 2011 by SolarMisae