StarGazer Posted December 4, 2011 Posted December 4, 2011 at least cs2 fagna wasn't a easy mode character like cs1 and ct. he is.
StarGazer Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Yes h... okay fine he isn't. just don't defile Makoto forums with his name. Am waiting for omni report on Makoto
OmniSScythe Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Super amazingly quick report because I only had 20 minutes of sleep total within 30 hours: Makoto is SOLID MID TIER MATERIAL Has better damage midscreen off a lot of thing when the opponent is hit couching. Her corner carry is more accessible since 6C 214A~C~D works on everyone. 2A > 5A on Relius and Tager is so troll. 22 frames still bodied most people. 5CC > tk corona upper orb oki is legit. Could not remember a way to land BBS and follow up on it till right now, something like 6B > 214A~C~B > 2A > 5C© > 2D(1) > dash 5A > 6A > BBS with opponent behind you. (Not tested, take with a giant of salt but easiest way for the behind you set up) You can follow up on a CH 214A~C~A with dash 2A, perhaps even 5B > 214A~C~B. 3C still has projectile invincibility near the end, I attempted to beat out bursts with 3C and I got it on my second try! Any other questions just ask on. zzz Edited December 5, 2011 by OmniSScythe
André Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Did you try this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=y5FsUOkogfk#t=739s How long is the Parry cooldown? How are the new asteroid vision paths? Do you think they are better? Do you think her pressure was greatly affected by the new IB and barrier pushback of CSE? (Close range character, more pushback...) For now, who do you think will be her bad match-ups? If she is solid Mid-Tier, why do you think the japanese rank Makoto so Low?
StarGazer Posted December 5, 2011 Posted December 5, 2011 Can i has Questions? How hard her combos now? don't you think 5C Hitbox is now buffed? (i see Makoto's doing 5CC > 2D(1) > 5CC now). can you feel any change in Makoto's Movement? Is Makoto Initial Dash speed really nerfed? if so, will that hurt our neutral game? how do you like the new Makoto? 5CC > tk corona upper orb oki is legit. ^ This, having a good lockdown game in the corner will be so beast for Makoto, as she can dish good damage in corner from her good mix up. If you want to test 3[C] INV then try it on Lambda's Legacy Edge. About the tier thingy... from what i know, Makoto in CSEX have 5.0 in most match ups, and have 4.5 with Valk, Haz, Rag, Tao, Carl, Haku, and maybe Mu, Bang or Lambda too. So, you will get something near the -3.0 which is not bad. Bah we should just wait for Arcadia tier list but, before that, i want to know what you think of Relius match up?
OmniSScythe Posted December 6, 2011 Posted December 6, 2011 (edited) 1. Did you try this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=y5FsUOkogfk#t=739s 2. How long is the Parry cooldown? 3. How are the new asteroid vision paths? Do you think they are better? 4. Do you think her pressure was greatly affected by the new IB and barrier pushback of CSE? (Close range character, more pushback...) 5. For now, who do you think will be her bad match-ups? 6. If she is solid Mid-Tier, why do you think the japanese rank Makoto so Low? 1. Only up to 214A~C~B > 2A > 5C part I manage to remember but I'm sure it works because the half-assed version did as well. 2. I'll assume it's at least for 14 frames. Honestly didn't try it more then once at a time due to getting CH a lot when attempting at the usually spots. 3. They are worse then before, B version has a little under half the originally range after a dashing start and the added height makes it so you have less frame advantage when going for it, might be possible to do cross up lightening arrows with the C version since there it's already a few set ups for this in CS2. 4. Not that noticeable for Makoto. 5. Guesstimates are but not limited to: Tao = Carl > Haz = Mu > Lambda > Tager = Haku, after it's just mostly 5's all a across. 6. I have yet to see the opinion of a known Japanese player of how Makoto is looking so far, at this point she started to get worked out a lot more and she can only get better from here. 7. Can i has Questions? How hard her combos now? don't you think 5C Hitbox is now buffed? (i see Makoto's doing 5CC > 2D(1) > 5CC now). can you feel any change in Makoto's Movement? Is Makoto Initial Dash speed really nerfed? if so, will that hurt our neutral game? how do you like the new Makoto? 8. About the tier thingy... from what i know, Makoto in CSEX have 5.0 in most match ups, and have 4.5 with Valk, Haz, Rag, Tao, Carl, Haku, and maybe Mu, Bang or Lambda too. So, you will get something near the -3.0 which is not bad. Bah we should just wait for Arcadia tier list but, before that, i want to know what you think of Relius match up? 7A. She'll take a moderate amount of time to get used but for a previous Makoto player she wouldn't seem hard. Also she requires a good amount timing on a lot of stuff. If you notice me dropping any of her combos on the footage getting released some time soon it's because I'm unused to the pad I had and the recording TV was laggy. 7B. 5CC > 2D(1) > 5CC is as old as CS1, get with the times! 7C. Initial Dash speed is nerfed and if you was a nimble player you'll notice the difference. Not too bad but indeed there. 7D. I'm actually really okay with how she turned out, btw we're still using the "Oh I'm low tier" OS in till everyone else catching on. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 8. I can't really say much about Relius since the only guy using him was still getting used to him, shouldn't be any where near annoying as dealing with Carl. Autopilot pressure around him is gonna get you punished hard by him though. Another notable thing is that break shot got nerfed and only takes 1 primer. Also I have some self-recorded footage of me playing, the best parts however was unusable due to either 1, a bad angle and or 2 but my arm covered the lens for a good amount of matches. Edited December 6, 2011 by OmniSScythe
StarGazer Posted December 7, 2011 Posted December 7, 2011 Good work at NEC, you made them salty enough. Oh and lol@Unlimited Taokaka. we're still using the "Oh I'm low tier" OS. lol i realized that ppl are dumb, am gonna play Makoto despite how they look at it. Makoto: 2C FC in corner 6K Damage "omg 2A deals 6K, so broken mash 2A = win..." Hazama: Mix up > hit? > 236236B > 7K "omg that was amazing, so troll etc etc", Makoto is meant to be hated, but this OS will sure help a lot ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ one last thing just to make sure. Each gatling have 3(2A) and 3(5A) right? so you can do 2Ax3 > 5Ax3?
mAc Chaos Posted December 7, 2011 Posted December 7, 2011 she was never low tier!!!!!!! arhguroghertorjry *rages*
javi Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 I think it's healthy to be so positive.. but for Makoto to be strict mid tier, there needs to be 9 other characters weaker than Makoto.
OmniSScythe Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 Well I wouldn't call your way of thinking wrong but it's more then possible for her to be consider on equal ground with another batch of characters. Using my guesstimates from earlier about possible bad matches: Tao = Carl > Haz = Mu > Lambda > Tager = Haku Meaning she has 11 even match ups and none in her favor, it doesn't mean that those even with her are worst it just mean from a match up perspective she's actually doing well.
javi Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 Well, I wasn't talking about weaker on a per-matchup basis.. I was referring to the overall scheme of things. Like maybe you'd say Ragna vs Makoto is even 5:5, but the sum of all of Ragna's matchups end up better than Makoto's for example.
StarGazer Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 Makoto is out of CS1 Rachel tier and CS1 Valk tier, that's all what i need to know :p Speaking of Makoto Match ups: you should consider Valkenhayn and Ragna. Ragna finish most of his matches with 2~3 Combos, and Valkenhayn is now ugly because we lost our Orb Oki and the ability to carry.
OmniSScythe Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) Ah I knew there a subject I didn't continue on. Makoto's ability to carry is universal now, on standing anything into 6C > 214A~C~D works on everyone now. On crouch you can go into 214A~C~B > 2A > 5C > 6C > 214B~j.AB > j.D With even better starters you can also do 214A~C~B > 2A > 5CC > 2D(1) >(66) 5C > 6C > 214B~j.AB > j.D That j.D can still be combo off of thanks to increase hit stun on j.D. Also I remember doing 5CC > j.D > 2366A~D so that good to know. Also her CH 5B combos are still pretty damaging. So damage, carry, normals and orb oki if done right (if even necessary) is still there. For Ragna, it's not ending in 2 hits unless blood kain, either way the matches is more or less the same. In Valk's case it's still the same but without him losing in 2 clean hits. Edited December 8, 2011 by OmniSScythe
StarGazer Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 hmm... will 5B > 5CC > 6BC > 214ACB > 5CC 2D > 5C6C > 214BB > j.D work? 5B CH still combo to 2C? 2A > 5B > 6C > PF > 2D > 214ABC work? Also i see ppl OTG in the corner with 214ABC and never use 214ACC why? There is a match ended with Ragna confirming 5B crouch hit into 4800 Midscreen, then 6B mix up into Death. do not underestimate him.
OmniSScythe Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 You may have to omit 6BC, I don't why but in most video I see people avoid using it if their combo already started. Yes 5B CH > 2C still works. Do you mean PF > 2D(1) > 5C > 6C then yeah it would but your timing has to be on point. I only got a proper 2D(1) > 5CC once out of 5 attempt. 214ACC stops working way before 214ACB does Here's the thing tho, if I know at which point he does CDP at in a combo that I don't want him to finish, I'm going burst then make him eat my 4-5k combo into 6B mix up into death.
StarGazer Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 Do you mean PF > 2D(1) > 5C > 6C then yeah it would but your timing has to be on point. I only got a proper 2D(1) > 5CC once out of 5 attempt. Oh my mistake, forgot that after PF > 2D(3) they tech out in air so no 2C or 214AC. Can we get PF Starter > 2D(3) > 2C/214AC to work? even if the PF was FC?
OmniSScythe Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 Not sure, every time I attempted to go to training mode for some real practice someone else wanted to play on the station.
WolfCrimson Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) 7D. I'm actually really okay with how she turned out, btw we're still using the "Oh I'm low tier" OS in till everyone else catching on. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Too late, I already caught on. And I'm telling the whoooole world about this. Or at least the Ragna board. she was never low tier!!!!!!! arhguroghertorjry *rages* Actually, this is good news. Having a bad character who is almost nonviable is not good for a FG. Just rejoice it's no longer 2A to 4K or whatever in a 15 second combo with corner carry and orb oki, they have to follow the law of the low midscreen damage now. Makoto: 2C FC in corner 6K Damage "omg 2A deals 6K, so broken mash 2A = win..." Hazama: Mix up > hit? > 236236B > 7K "omg that was amazing, so troll etc etc", Makoto is meant to be hated, but this OS will sure help a lot ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Not against me it won't.:bad: Edited December 8, 2011 by WolfCrimson
StarGazer Posted December 8, 2011 Posted December 8, 2011 Actually, this is good news. Having a bad character who is almost nonviable is not good for a FG. Just rejoice it's no longer 2A to 4K or whatever in a 15 second combo with corner carry and orb oki, they have to follow the law of the low midscreen damage now. Actually the nerfs are welcomed. However I expected good stuff from ASW after I saw the changes that happend CS2 Ragna. So overall the changes are good but it could have been better , also, Makoto lost her combo length (which can be shortened even more if ASW payed more attention) so thats another yay Speaking honestly, CS2 Makoto is cool, of course better than the rest of the cast, but yeah, someone must be better than the others in any game. Even you are beating my Makoto with your Ragna so stop QQ'ing on anything other than her combos length.
HIGEKING42 Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 well now the combo length switched over to fagna and he can do full corner carries like makoto did.
Fluck Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Ragna's max combo length is actually the same even outside of BK because he hardly gained any new combo pieces, just that the proration buffs increase his average combo length. They're still not very long compared to other chars with long combos, lol. Omni, I noticed you didn't list Valk as a possible bad match-up. Is there any particular reason for this?
OmniSScythe Posted December 9, 2011 Posted December 9, 2011 Not much change at all, Makoto was never running around doing 5-7k damage consistently to Valk and the hits she was landing (mostly midscreen) has more or less gotten better.
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