Airk Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Here's the breakdown: 236236C: Has TONS of invulnerability in CS2 (Unclear if this has changed, but it would just be insulting if it had) which makes it a strong reversal option, but has very little range. Has had its minimum damage inexplicably nerfed in Extend (from ~800 to ~600 if reports are correct). Does not require or consume any charges. Can be used to tack on some extra damage at the end of a lot of corner combos. (Good if it will kill, or if you're sitting on a lot of heat). 236236D: Has no invulnerability in CS2 (Changes for EX are unknown - hopefully we'll have better data in a few days when KayEff finishes translating) but is airborne from frame 4 onwards, which uh... doesn't really mean much except that you can't be ground thrown out of it. Is extremely fast to start up, and causes Tsubaki to lunge forwards slightly, which can cause it to hit under circumstances when 236236C would whiff. Consumes all charges, though can get some pretty solid damage going if you have a lot (Min damage of like 2300 if you burn 5 charges. :P) DOES work with zero charges, but doesn't do much damage at all. Needs 2 charges to do comparable damage to 236236C. Only really useful as a finisher when you're not sure 236236C will hit. 214214D: Requires at least one charge. Causes you to eat through your charge gauge at an alarming rate. Not really very useful except for styling in CS2, in EX, activating it undoes SOME of the nerfage of Tsubaki's D moves in Extend (It doesn't fix the fact that they nerfed the P1s pretty hard, but it otherwise restores them to more or less CS2 status.). One of Tsubaki's major damage tools in Extend, but unfortunately puts a large "burst this combo" sticker on the screen when you do it. (You CAN dodge bursts with 214D, but a lot of the time that's not practical.) Oh, and it's also usable in the air in Extend (Where is my sarcastic eyeroll smiley?) Edited January 30, 2012 by Airk
MikelAL93 Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 Ok, since I main Tsubaki, I would love to ask some questions: 1). Is it okay to use the D versions of certain moves during combos after you followed them from the A/B/C version of that move? or does it depend on the situation? (Example: After a 6CC, I canceled into a C Benedictus Rex followed by a D Aequum Eleison and D Lux Aeterna, then I cancel into B Veritas, A Aequum, then D Decus to end my combo (This is just an example combo)). 2). Given from her changes in CS Extend, would you say that she has gotten better? or worse?
Daedron Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 1) Really depends on the situation, though in your example you don't use a A/B/C version and then a D version so I might be misunderstanding this. But if you're asking if it's sometimes worth it to use an A/B/C move instead of the D version of that move in a combo then yes, there are situations where it might be handy to do so, though using A/B versions generally doesn't happen, it's mostly the C version or D unless we're talking about enders. Let's say you have 2 charges available and you land a 5B, you could do 5BB - 5CC - 22C - 236D - *insert combo here* instead of doing 5BB - 5CC - 22D - 236D - *insert combo here*. In this example, you use 1 less charge for (obviously) less damage, but you get the same corner carry as you do if you used 2 charges. It really depends on how many charges you're willing to spend, which again depends on how hard it is to get charge in a given matchup. If you know you can get the charges back easily enough then go ahead and use them up in your combos, but if you're hurting to get charge then it might be wiser to only spend 1 and use the other charge for another combo, or unblockable, or for D DP etc. 2) She's worse, but honestly not that much that you feel like you're playing a totally crippled character. CS1 is still WAAAAAAYYYYY worse, to the point where I am shocked that I once played her CS1 incarnation and it felt fine controlling her, she's so sluggish compared to CS2/CS EX. You do have to work a bit harder for your wins though, that's for sure.
MikelAL93 Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 1) Really depends on the situation, though in your example you don't use a A/B/C version and then a D version so I might be misunderstanding this. But if you're asking if it's sometimes worth it to use an A/B/C move instead of the D version of that move in a combo then yes, there are situations where it might be handy to do so, though using A/B versions generally doesn't happen, it's mostly the C version or D unless we're talking about enders. Let's say you have 2 charges available and you land a 5B, you could do 5BB - 5CC - 22C - 236D - *insert combo here* instead of doing 5BB - 5CC - 22D - 236D - *insert combo here*. In this example, you use 1 less charge for (obviously) less damage, but you get the same corner carry as you do if you used 2 charges. It really depends on how many charges you're willing to spend, which again depends on how hard it is to get charge in a given matchup. If you know you can get the charges back easily enough then go ahead and use them up in your combos, but if you're hurting to get charge then it might be wiser to only spend 1 and use the other charge for another combo, or unblockable, or for D DP etc. 2) She's worse, but honestly not that much that you feel like you're playing a totally crippled character. CS1 is still WAAAAAAYYYYY worse, to the point where I am shocked that I once played her CS1 incarnation and it felt fine controlling her, she's so sluggish compared to CS2/CS EX. You do have to work a bit harder for your wins though, that's for sure. Okay, thank you very much. I will keep those in mind once I play CS2 again Saturday before get CS EX for Graduation (Sadly).
Errol Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 2) She's worse, but honestly not that much that you feel like you're playing a totally crippled character. CS1 is still WAAAAAAYYYYY worse, to the point where I am shocked that I once played her CS1 incarnation and it felt fine controlling her, she's so sluggish compared to CS2/CS EX. Really? What changed?
MikelAL93 Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 Really? What changed? Since I am a nice person, allow me to quote from Nini Heart's thread listing the actual changes of CS Extend. Tsubaki Yayoi +Charges may be canceled" (UFA) - "Charge 5D is slower, as expected" - "After the 623C {,} j.214A whiff, you can not hit a 2C. You can only follow with aerial, but the timing is restricted " + "CH 22D causes wall bounce" + "3C {CH} 5CC works, goes to IAD combos" * "{22D, 6C} still combo" * "{22D, 236D} still works midscreen" - "Dash feels slower - "5B is clearly slower + "5C is faster" + "Cancel Charge has been improved" (huh?) - "236236C had minimal damage reduced to 650" (was 840) - "6C FC lost" - "The 22X has more recovery and worse proration as a starter -/+? "All the blows with D gained greater prorate(not sure if this means proration is better or worse)" - "5B hitbox seems better + "J.D seems to charge more. 2.8 bars filled from a double jump " * "Spamming 5D/2D, you need to fill 10 charges for 1 bar" * "2D charges very slowly until complete 1 bar. From this it is quicker to fill the remaning bars " + "{Double jump, j.236D, airdash} seems to work" + "5C hitbox is a lot better. You can hit it after a 22C in the corner with no dash " * "5C seems to put the opponent higher" - 2C has worse repeat proration
Errol Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 Well, the changes in question here would be from CS to CS2. The big things I remember are: a. can follow up with D versions of moves even if whiffed or blocked b. 236C frame advantage, 22c frame advantage, 6b frame advantage (all except one is gone in csex, and 5b frame advantage and recovery is nerfed) c. General combo damage d. Charge rates e. gapless gatlings Man, cs2 was a nice change.
Kiba Posted February 8, 2012 Posted February 8, 2012 2). Given from her changes in CS Extend, would you say that she has gotten better? or worse? Both. Her neutral game has been nerfed in that 5B has had it's recovery increased and the startup of it has gone up from 9 - 10. In addition, 236C/D used to be very powerful in closing the gap between players, especially 236C which could leave you at +5 if spaced right. Now they are both unsafe on block, and 236C is unsafe even if spaced right. The rest of her specials have also become disadvantageous on block which makes it more risky to followup drive specials on block. So in neutral, it will usually now require you to run around more. She does less damage than usual, and if you want to do good damage with her without heat, you'll have to work a little harder for it. She has gotten better in that 3CC is now very useful. It can be used in combos as it provides 120% bonus proration, and it even fatal counters, which can lead into a ton of damage. 6A also fatals as well, and while it's usefulness is shunned by 3CC or 6CC which provide better punishers, it's still a plus. Furthermore, she deals much more damage with her drive specials in mugen, and the 623D -j.236D - j.214D repeat combo in that mode provides excellent heat gain which can be used to add another DD at the end of the combo (or of course, for other uses). Because of the amount of damage this can deal, players may try to burst, but you can even bait bursts by using 214D which will evade the burst hit, and it'll still leave them vulnerable to further attacks. Being that throws are special cancellable now, this adds to improve her corner carry w/o meter or stock. 6CC floating less allows us to use simple combos (w/o stock or meter) whilst allowing us to maintain an advantageous position in the corner. Overall I think she still retains promise, but as Daedron said, you just need to work harder, as basically every matchup has gotten much more harder for her.
Airk Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Overall I think she still retains promise, but as Daedron said, you just need to work harder, as basically every matchup has gotten much more harder for her. Fundamentally, I think if every matchup has gotten harder, it's pretty safe to say that she has gotten worse, overall.
BatousaiJ Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Only real thing Tsu lost in her CS 1 to CS 2 iteration that I can remember was the 3C JC which was very nice but everything she got just vastly overshadowed that small nerf.
pktazn Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Since I am a nice person, allow me to quote from Nini Heart's thread listing the actual changes of CS Extend. These are also (as well as updated) in the first post of the Tsubaki Yayoi General Discussion thread IMO she's worse than her CS2 incarnation but not so much that she's completely unplayable if that's what you're trying to find out. She's just different. Edited February 9, 2012 by pktazn
MikelAL93 Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) IMO she's worse than her CS2 incarnation but not so much that she's completely unplayable if that's what you're trying to find out. She's just different. That is what I've been trying to find out. Thank you very much for letting me know, pk. I will use all of the known information (Like balance changes) wisely to make sure that I will get used to Tsubaki's buffs and nerfs in CS:EX. ^^ I will also try my best to help out with all information regarding Tsubaki. Edited February 9, 2012 by MikelAL93
Airk Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Only real thing Tsu lost in her CS 1 to CS 2 iteration that I can remember was the 3C JC which was very nice but everything she got just vastly overshadowed that small nerf. Also midscreen 22D wallbounce, but it is as you say - the pros hugely outweighed the cons going from CS1 to CS2; Holy cow, I fooled around with a few matches in CS1, and it was hilariously terrible. I kept going "Wait, that didn't work either?"
mazn Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 236C is unsafe even if spaced right. What about her 236A/B? Are they also unsafe on block regardless of how well spaced you are?
Velvien Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Very much so. -7 and -13, respectively, iirc. Edited February 9, 2012 by Velvien
Errol Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I never found spacing 236A or 236B spacing to be effective anyway. 236C you obviously could get a hefty frame advantage off of, while the move still being very fast/effective at that spacing.. I never really found B or A to be effective. Anyone else?
mazn Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I've found 236A to be useful during pressure, especially when they barrier block. Thats about it though.
Airk Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I've found 236A to be useful during pressure, especially when they barrier block. Thats about it though. This; 236A could set you up in a very good position if you spaced it right - Somewhere around the edge of 5B range. 236B was harder, but I still managed to get some mileage out of it from time to time. Now these moves basically go to the proverbial "back of the spellbook" to never be used again outside of a combo. Stupid.
Biara Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 I think I'm a somewhat decent Tsubaki-player at this point, but I've been having trouble lately, especially against beat down characters. I've only just started using counter-hits (very late to learn, I know), but I tend to find that my overall game gets worse when players are really aggressive. All the combos and offensive strategies I've learned just leave me because I'm spending most of the battle blocking in the corner, or just trying to get a hit in edgewise. When I finally DO land a hit, I'm so nervous that I just degenerate into easy, "safe" combos which typically ends up getting blocked/punished, and then I'm back in the corner. Sometimes, when fighting very strong players, even if I win, I can't help but feel I was doing it "wrong" because it just comes from getting hits in every now and then, and not from mastery of combos. I've seen Tsubakis do very impressive things with pressure, forcing the enemy to block while changing up their moves all the while to stop from being predictable, but as of right now, I am terrible at that. I guess what I want to know is how to make the leap from an okay player to those Tsubakis who seem to be able to react seamlessly without needing to even think about what move to use next. I think, at this point, I am in need of a big change up in my playstyle. I know I'm going to need a lot of practice, but I am not even sure HOW to practice this sort of thing. Just go play around with gatlings and see which ones can lead to combos? And then, where is the best place to practice? In training mode? Very Hard arcade? Just keep playing people online until I learn how to react to different characters?
Kiba Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I guess what I want to know is how to make the leap from an okay player to those Tsubakis who seem to be able to react seamlessly without needing to even think about what move to use next. I think, at this point, I am in need of a big change up in my playstyle. I know I'm going to need a lot of practice, but I am not even sure HOW to practice this sort of thing. Just go play around with gatlings and see which ones can lead to combos? And then, where is the best place to practice? In training mode? Very Hard arcade? Just keep playing people online until I learn how to react to different characters? If you'd like help with combos, refer to the combo compilation. Though if you'd like help with the timings of combos or inputs, be sure to shoot here. Start with the combos you're comfortable with, get used to them, and then you can work your way up. Training mode is the best place to practice your combos and get used to Tsubaki's normals, specials and gatlings. Arcade mode is not a very good place to train imo because you will have a very high tendency to learn very bad habits, like maybe, trying to use j.214C to hit opponents. Just because the CPU doesn't punish it doesn't mean players in general can't punish it. After all, it is unsafe on block. Offline and online are the best options you have when you feel quite comfortable about your character. Not only do you gain matchup exp, but you get to understand more about your character. You've already found out that Tsubaki struggles alot when she's under pressure. She has a DP (or two I should say) to fall back on, but they're not completely reliable. To make it easier for yourself, you can use the barrier to push your opponent out, and provide escape routes for yourself. You'd just have to practice, play, and enjoy the game. Overtime, combos will come naturally to you, and you'll know what to do in certain matchups for example. All that just comes with playing offline/online, and even watching match videos may help because they give you an idea of what you can do in situations, and also at times can show you what not to do, haha. In addition, if you check out the Tsubaki wiki, there are tips on using blockstrings and pressure. I hope that helps. Anything else, let us know. Edited February 20, 2012 by Kiba
Biara Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Thanks a lot! I'm a little relieved to hear that my troubles with pressure wasn't just me XD I just took a look at some of these combos, and this one looks interesting: 5A > 5BB > j.BB > j.C > 5BB > 5CC > 214A 22B But I can't seem to consistently get the j.BB to come out right. The second one will sometimes hit but most of the time it'll go right over the guy's head. I've been practicing against Ragna. Is this one that needs to be based on character height, or am I getting the input wrong? Edit: Well, tried with Haku, and now the problem is that 5bb is coming out too late after the J.C. Should I be getting the j.BB out faster? And I just noticed one further down that has a jump cancel before it, so how is that different than this? If this is a "simple" combo I'm going to be in trouble.... Edited February 21, 2012 by Biara
Kiba Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) No problem. In terms of the combo, that's quite difficult at first, and is not simple at all. I had difficulty with that combo at first, and it requires you to be quite close to your opponent. It's not mandatory for your staple combos, so you're better off using 5BB > 5CC > 214A > 22B. The j.BB needs to be slightly delayed for it to work, and you also need to be inputting j.9b and not j.8b (basically jumping forwards and not straight up doing it). Note that combo doesn't work on characters with small hitboxes like Platinum and Noel. It works fine on Ragna. This is what it looks like. Edited February 21, 2012 by Kiba
Airk Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 5BB > 5CC > 214A > 22B Does the "old" "combo 1" no longer work? (5BB>2BB>5CC>236A>214A>22A)? Or is it just somehow inferior to the one listed? Similarly, is there a reason to go for 214A > 22B vs either 236A > 214A > 22A or just 22C?
Kiba Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Does the "old" "combo 1" no longer work? (5BB>2BB>5CC>236A>214A>22A)? Or is it just somehow inferior to the one listed? Similarly, is there a reason to go for 214A > 22B vs either 236A > 214A > 22A or just 22C? The old combo does work, but I don't like using 22A or 22C because they have more recovery compared to 22B. 22B has the most untechable time apparently too. Not using 236A is more of a personal thing, though if you're hitting with 5CC at max range, 236A can whiff. Edited February 21, 2012 by Kiba
Airk Posted February 21, 2012 Posted February 21, 2012 The old combo does work, but I don't like using 22A or 22C because they have more recovery compared to 22B. 22B has the most untechable time apparently too. >Confused< Extend frame data says 22B has the same recovery (26 frames) and untechable time (45 frames) as 22C, but does 50 less damage. It does come out slightly faster, but that's the only difference I'm seeing. Not using 236A is more of a personal thing, though if you're hitting with 5CC at max range, 236A can whiff. This is definitely something you need to adjust for, yes.
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