[CS2] Tsubaki vs Noel

[BatousaiJ]

Once they start overusing 4D on wake up, I just go straight into the 6C option and get a nice meaty fatal off of it.

You can beat 4D with 2A as well but 2A loses to 2D and you don't want to gamble on such a terrible reward/risk game.

Also, I saw a deal on a Roxio Game Capture and picked it up new for $55. It only captures at 480p but that's enough for my purposes I think since that's what I would upload to youtube at anyway.

Looking forward to testing it out and maybe I'll post up some fun matches and finally get cracking on that community combo video I mentioned a while back.

Yay~

[pktazn]

4D is ridiculous, suprised it doesnt get more use.

Some forget it because they have 2D Though some may not use it because they don't actually know how to use it.

[LuminAbyss]

They should just use 5D more, it would make my life easier >w>

[Airk]

4D is ridiculous, suprised it doesnt get more use.

I concur; It took me a while to figure out that 4D wasn't 2D, because I heard everyone complaining about 2D and figured it had to be the move that was blowing me up all the time. x.x Eventually, I shall train myself not to jump at Noel on wakeup unless I want to barrier block. :P (Note: Even if I barrier block 4D on my jump in, can I actually DO anything to punish afteward?)

[HexaNoid]

(Note: Even if I barrier block 4D on my jump in, can I actually DO anything to punish afteward?)

I don't think so, since we can still use drive follow-ups and possibly land a CH if you push buttons. Just carry on blocking, wait for her to finish attacking and then do your thing.

They should just use 5D more, it would make my life easier >w>

I love going through things with 5D now. Feels like you earned it, y'know? =w=

[Rhiya]

Is 4D safe because of spacing? Frame data has it at like -26, but I could see how the backstep could make it harder to punish

EDIT: Nevermind, it's the cancel window, right?

Edited July 5, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos

[Kiba]

Just carry on blocking, wait for her to finish attacking and then do your thing.

Lol. Continuing to block risks us losing at least 3 primers for free and gives you more mixup oppurtunities.

If you see Noel use 4D, DP her ass if she's gonna followup. If she isnt going to follow up, 214D/22D may help.

[Airk]

Is 4D safe because of spacing? Frame data has it at like -26, but I could see how the backstep could make it harder to punish

EDIT: Nevermind, it's the cancel window, right?

You are correct; There is no real reason you'd ever just let 4D finish, so the -26 is irrelevant. (Aside: There's basically no such thing as a -26 on block move that is "safe due to spacing" from Tsubaki, unless it renders the opponent airborne or something. There's always going to be something you can punish with - be it 22X, 214X or 236C.)

And right. so... no jumping towards Noel during wakeup. Just not worth it.

[BatousaiJ]

You can punish 4D on IAD wake up if you delay your C but I generally don't opt to go with IAD ambigious j.CC against Noel all that much.

Sometimes I like to option select after 5B blocked > IAD j.CC(or j.C > 2B) though and I haven't seen many people react to it.

Edit: when I get on a proper computer I'll probably shift most of the Noel posts into her match-up thread unless Ginseng gets to it or just decides to leave it here lol.

Oh ya, I was kind of wondering why we were talking about the Noel match up in such detail here but I guess Noel mainers like to hang out at the cool kid's table.

Edited July 5, 2011 by BatousaiJ

[Amadeus46Art]

Oh ya, I was kind of wondering why we were talking about the Noel match up in such detail here but I guess Noel mainers like to hang out at the cool kid's table.

It's the boob envy.

Also while we're on the topic, how viable is just grabbing Noel during her drive strings? IB a starter, then grab the bitch for a counter? Probably wouldn't work versus 4D because of the backstep but other stuff why not?

[HexaNoid]

If you see Noel use 4D, DP her ass if she's gonna followup. If she isnt going to follow up, 214D/22D may help.

Oh yeah. I always forget you guys have a DP. I'll have to see if I can beat that with Assault Through or something..

By the way, are you up for some more games? :3

Also while we're on the topic, how viable is just grabbing Noel during her drive strings?

Nah, I don't think that works; you'll almost definitely just get countered yourself. Just stick with your DP in my opinion.

[Kiba]

Alright, I'll try my best. We all know Noel is a strong bitch and anything little mistake we make can easily reward her with 5K + and us in the corner. I will try to cover every/most aspect(s) of this matchup and look at it from all angles.

At Neutral :

It will mainly be you charging for stock and the Noel will be looking at the many options she has to try and get in. It will either be she runs up to you and decides to begin pressure. The run in can be stopped with a simply 5B, which if at max range will force you to stop charging and go in with some pressure of your or retreat, or even better you could hit her away with 5B - 22A for example but that's difficult hit confirm. 22A is -9 on block but from max range I doubt Noel will be able to punish it, and if she did, with 3C for example, she will not be able to followup but it'll mean you'll have to block the incoming pressure she lays on you.

If Noel attempts to IAD onto, you know the deal. 2C AA. Just be careful with this. If the Noel barrier blocks the 2C and you followup with 2CC on a CROUCHING player it will whiff and it will give Noel enough time to punish your whiff and send you to the corner where you do not want to be. It may be difficult to confirm but you need to get used to either doing 2C - 22C/Jump cancelling away if Noel barrier blocks it and is close to the ground. If she's quite high and barrier blocking you could do 2C - air throw for some mixup.

Alternatively, Noel may use 236C to stop you from charging from far which may be the main plan. It will catch your 5D and will allow Noel to charge in and begin pressure. The way to beat this would be to not charge for so long and maybe concentrate on 5D taps. Plus if the Noel gets predictable you can use 236C/D to score a CH since the recovery for her optic barrel (236X) is quite bad. Though even if the Noel is pacing up and down you can still charge in with 236C. From that far distance it's +5 on block so abuse the advantage you have and go for mixed pressure.

Also consider these:

Don't try to fight Noel air to air with j.C as you'll lose out most of the time and don't let your 2C be baited for that j.D attack as that will hurt.

Fight her on the ground, your 5B will hit her faster than her 5C can but just remember that 5B will whiff over 3C so if they catch on to that, watch out.

Tsubaki should stay grounded as much as possible as you have great tools for shutting down our approaches from both the air and the ground as long as you don't start jumping around.

Her air throw range is also quite big. When you realise how annoying it can be you'll know to stay put on the ground. Tsubaki's air normals aren't great and she won't stand a chance against Noel in the air. Noel's will attempt to use 3C against you if you get predictable with you 5B pokes as she's charging in or if she's much closer to you, in which case you'd want to be very mobile. You don't want to give Noel an easy chance to hit you with her bullshit.

Pressure wise

Consider this:

When a Noel starts to try to mash out of my 5C > 6B link pressure with 2D(which works), I immediately start throwing in 22C into the mix ambigiously after 5C and catch them on a CH. Tsubaki has all the tools in the world to keep a Noel player honest. If your block string doesn't throw of of these other options in there from time to time, they'll be able to mash their way out of your pressure and considering good Noel players will have you mostly dead after two 2D/5D CH hits, it's important to make sure they don't rely on it too much and if they do, to use it against them as a weakness.

4D is easily beaten with 22x as well as that has the distance to hit them without you ever being in danger of being hit by the 4D itself.

Remember for all of the uses of 214x and 22x vary depending on when you're trying to use it whether that be in the middle of a block string or on a fast approach. You can figure out which will be best to use when and it's fairly obvious.

Just be aware of what you can do when these hits do land as CH as you'll want to continue the combo afterwards to make them think twice about mashing things out.

Noels will more likely mash out 2D if you use the 5CC - 6B block string. 6B only hits foot and 2D will go right over it.

Rather than using 6B, use 5C - 6C against mashing Noels. It will beat all their drive options, including on her wakeup too. If the 6C is blocked you can attempt to go for some additional JCC pressure, IAD over her into J214D crossup or charge delay JC, or you could simply just away to put yourself back at neutral considering the above options.

Your blockstrings shouldn't consist of anything too long or anything that consists of 6B.

Something like 5B - 2BB - 5C - 6C is fine. Just don't abuse it. Tsubaki's 6A and 6C have a quite a slow startup and she can thrown out of both of them. The blockstring I mentioned though should have you out of throw range however.

If you have Noel in the corner, depending on the skill of the player, you can use 5B - unblockable. It can work but make sure you're out of her drive range otherwise it'll beat your unblockable, and then you'll end up there. You should have some stocks provided that you played right at neutral and score some stock after knocking her down. Don't do a long blockstring into unblockable, such as 5BB - 2BB - 5CC - unblockable. Anything after 5CC can near guarantee an escape for Noel provided you didnt use 22A. You want to make your pressure unpredictable.

You could also walk back slightly and use 214D. If they do use a drive, it won't last for that long and your 214D will hit them. If it's done on block, followup with 22D at first instances. Alot of players tend to try something after Tsubaki does 214D.

Mixing in Kara throws will also be beneficial. 5B - kara throw is the best though, but you could also do 5BB - Kara throw, and 2B - kara throw.

2A is also +2 on block so you can abuse that to your hearts content. If it's a mashy Noel though, 2AAAA - throw will work really nicely.

Something else should consider. When ending your blockstrings, either end it with 22C to bust a primer or charge cancel and get away. It’s likely if you apply additional pressure from the charge cancel they will mash drive. Ending the string with 22C while Noel has heat can allow her to counter by using Fenrir, which will put you both at neutral again.

In additional, delayed blockstrings may help, such as 5BB(delay) or especially the better one, 5CC(delay). If the 5CC hits that allows for big damage to get in on counter hit. A variation of combos include:

(Corner) 5CC (CH) – Charge cancel – Dash 5B – 5CC – 22D – 6CC – 623C – J236A(w) – J214D – 623C – J214A(w) – 214D – 5C – 2CC – 22C – 5C – 2C – 236C -214B – 22B

(Near corner, if your hit confirm is good) 5CC(CH) – 6CC – 623C – J214B(w) – 623C – J236A(w) – J214D – 22D – 623C – J214A(w) – 214D – 2CC – 236D – 5C – 2CC -22C – 5C – 2C – 236C – 214B – 22B

Notice how I went for the optimal combos. You want to beat Noel as quickly as possible because it’s not a fun matchup and you want to make her pay. Simpler combos would be combos such as:

5CC(CH) – 6CC – 214D – 5C – 2CC – 236B – 214B – 22B or you could use the IAD combo instead. I recommend learning the harder combos if you can though. You want to always give it everything you’ve got and every little helps. All of the combos place you in a good position and Noel in the corner. Although, please avoid using J.CC – J236A – J214C combos and they place you in a bad position. You can either fast fall or charge in the air in which you can only followup with aerials and you will not be able to be to Air dash if you jumped twice in the combo. You will give Noel enough time to come in at you and pressure you again.

Regarding getting hit

Consider this:

Save your bursts for if/when you get hit by 2D/4D as it'll lead into 5k for us if you don't. j.4D crosses-up, hits low and is fast as hell, so if you see a Noel using it a certain points - like after j.B or a low IAD - remember to switch your blocking, attempt an anti-air with 2C or try and grab us when we land. Don't forget it breaks a primer on block though.

The main thing you need to worry about when getting hit is the stupid resets she can do, especially nonsense with the 6C. It turns into the Tager element where you’ll need to know when to tech, and if you do tech, always always remember to use your barrier, otherwise you’ll get even more frustrated.

A common one to note would be when she ends the combo in D.236D (bloom trigger) – 6C – throw cancel -6C AGAIN. It’s the 2nd 6C that will catch you if you don’t have your barrier up regardless of how you tech. Either don’t tech, and let her just rack up her 000.1k stuff or tech but bear barrier in mind. Not teching is the easier route though, just remember to neutral tech at the right time otherwise her 2B will catch you in a reset if you stay too long on the ground. Her 2b will also catch you if you decide to try to roll out.

Regarding blocking:

So Noel has you on block. Her normals are quite good so outpoking her is out of the question. Keep your barrier up so when you have the chance you can return the situation to a neutral state by backdasking or air dashing away. Try not t panic and press buttons whilst she’s pressuring you either. She can easily catch you in a CH which can result in a full combo for her, or she can easily get throw rejects on you.

Also recognise when she may use her overhead (6B) on you:

5C – 6B

2A/5A – 6B

6A (AA) – 6B

5B – 6B

She can only followup with her notorious 3C. If you block this however, you can counter with 22A CH – 5B -2CC – IAD combo or alternatively dash in with 2A – 5B – 5CC-6B – DP Whiff, but this is harder to do when the opponent used 3C at max range. It’s not safe on block at all, so if they do it, please punish them.

Noel can also do 2AA - dash 2D which will cross you up and hit unless you block in the opposite direction. It's difficult to react to, even I still have troubles with it, but look out for it. Noel can't do much to you in combo if she catches you with a low

When blocking drives, if you’re super observant you can 2A her out of her overhead or the low, but the general idea would be to block. You can poke Noel out of her D.214D, or alternatively you can IB it and then punish it with 2A – combo. If you have stock 623D (623A trades with alot of her drives) works wonders. Eventually Noel may use 4D to evade it, but if you have more stock, you can use J236D – J214D to make it ‘safe’. Burning 3 stocks for that avoids Noel getting a full combo on you and you getting sent in the corner. If you have no stocks, you can easily use 623A, but without the stocks you are vulnerable to Noels that may use 4D in their strings , which will get her a FC and also D.214D. It is also more likely to trade with her stuff. You can probably understand better why stocks are not only good offensively but defensively as well.

Like I previously said, if you block too much and let Noel get away with all this you will find out by the time she’s done you will have lost at least 3 primers. If possible, use the barrier to make it easy for you to remove yourself from the pressure. There are alot of holes in Noel’s drive pressure but poking out of it can be too intimidating for the players who are not so familiar with what’s going on.

Noel can guard break you very easily when in her drive mode, so you need to pay close attention to your barrier. When you attempt to air dash away from Noel you can use JC to stop her approach options, and again return the situation to neutral.

Some other things to consider:

Tsubaki's 214X/236X loses to Noel's 3C, and can lose to 4D if done on reaction.

22X beats Noel's 3C.

6A/6C beat all Noel's wakeup drive options, both of which must be done AS she techs so it doesn't whiff.

Almost everything I've explained is illustrated by this video. You can see how useful 2C AA is, and how mashing during Noel's blockstrings is a very bad idea. You also witness Noel's drives beating my 236X and the 6C reset which I pointed out above which caught me midscreen. You also notice the 2D crossup Noel is capable of. You can also see how effective air dashing away is useful in the gaps of Noel's strings, and how 5B was keeping her at bay.

Anddddd you can see Noel get a throw reject on me, lol.

I got hit by some lows because I tried IB'ing btw, and you don't see optimal combos because the pad I was using then was ruined which caused me to drop a few things, including DP wiff combos.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Kiba

[BatousaiJ]

Nice write up as expected, Kiba.

I have two things I'd add to what you wrote.

The first is a simple counter to Noels that 2D/4D/5D on reaction to our 236x and that's just simply to do 236A/B/C(depending on distance) and then cancel into 214D. It's the same kind of method to screw up Haku players that want to 5D counter 236x moves on reaction. What this will accomplish is to feint them into throwing out their drive move and then when you're right near them, you'd auto cancel into 214D to slide through their move as its ending and whack em for that 214D starter that'll give you a ton of damage.

After you do this a few times, they'll just be too scared to try to drive reaction our 236x moves and then we can just use them as we normally do.

The second thing I'd add to that is most Noel player's tendency to throw out j.4D(I think that's the command) to cross over and fish for FC which leads to huge damage.

This will change the landing timing and course of her air dash so if you just carelessly throw out 2C, they can use the j.4D land/get a hit relatively quickly and while 2C can and will intercept if it's thrown out early, if it's late it'll be FC and that's bad news.

I've seen most noels attempt this move on either side of the corner whether they have their back to it or you do(the latter to make it more ambiguous).

You can beat this with a number of things(safest is probably to jump and j.C as you're falling) but you can just throw them(if they land right next to you), 2A them or basically anything that's quick(many times I would react and 5B and often get hit first), just make sure you can spot it and react accordingly.

[HexaNoid]

Good stuff with the write up, Kiba. Here's a few things that I think should be noted as well:

Don't forget that XX > dash 2D only crosses up on crouching opponents at point blank, which means that if you stand up the cross up won't happen. You have to make sure you do it before 2D is active though because if you stand after you've been crossed up and you don't block the right way, Noel can hit you with 2D for a lot more damage than she would've gotten if you were crouching (2D on crouching nets about 3.8k while on standing it can go up to about 4.9k).

Noel can also go for an overhead after j.C, but j.C gets beaten out by an AA 2C pretty easily. Also, Noels don't have to follow-up into 3C after 6B any more since she has a pretty good 6B OS now. However this only works at point blank range as well, so if you notice she's far away from you when she does, say, 5C > 6B, then the only thing she can do is a 3C follow-up or nothing. Watch out for our meter too though, since Noels can go for 3C > RC > stuff to stop you from hitting us out of our unsafe 3C and possibly launching a counter attack.

You should also be aware of Noel's d.6B (Chain Revolver overhead). Noel can't use a drive move twice in a row so you don't have to be wary of double overheads or anything, but if you respect her drive too much without taking enough care, her mix-up can get through on occasion. You can beat out/trade with all our drives quite well (excluding d.4D and d.5B sometimes) with 623A/D anyway, but if you ever find yourself blocking Noel's drive strings then be aware of this. Noel can also go for lows in her strings (d.6D) or command grab you Muzzle Flitter (214A) if she's conditioned you into expecting the overhead at certain times.

[C0R]

Stealing your format Kiba, good work. Credit to you.

[Kiba]

Snip

I actually forgot about that so thanks for the addition!

Snip

Ah I thought I mentioned that the 2D nonsense only works on crouching opponents, but thanks for the mention! Noels may not do 6B - 3C, but I still see many do it! It's something to look out for. They just always need to crouch, and if there's a gap, they can retreat.

Stealing your format Kiba, good work. Credit to you.

Ha thanks and go ahead!

Again thanks guys!

[Andru]

All this matchup information - so useful~

I admit this Noel I fought kept doing drives into the drive overhead - then expecting the overhead all the time (Blocked it like 5 times!) he started mixing in the low one :X !

It is really useful to know how to "disrespect" her drives, with 2a, or grab, and such. Blocking for too long indeed leads to guard break / too much respect allows more "random" things to happen, like magic drive hits.

[CrescentSaber]

I know it may seem kinda gimicky, but I have also surprised a few Noels by using the 214x attacks when they start auto mashing 4D and 2D when I air dash in. If I have charges and 214D lands near the corner, it's combo time lol.

[Airk]

I know it may seem kinda gimicky, but I have also surprised a few Noels by using the 214x attacks when they start auto mashing 4D and 2D when I air dash in. If I have charges and 214D lands near the corner, it's combo time lol.

Be CAREFUL with this - 4D has foot attribute and will blow up your 214X stuff for fatal counter badness. Or did you mean j.214x? In which case, well, the spacing is pretty fidgety, because 4D's "blast" hitbox is WAY higher than it looks like it should be, and is taller than Noel for as long as it's out. This...hasn't really worked for me, overall. In fact, I don't seem to be able to jump in on her AT ALL, because 4D just blows up whatever I try, or if I block 4D, she just keeps going with her drive string into mixup/primer breaking/pushback/etc.

[CrescentSaber]

Well I do try to watch out for 4D. Most of the Noels I play against like to do that whenever I make a move to do anything offense wise so air dash~j.D for baiting out that annoying 4D, then doing j.214x(C or D version usually) sometimes works unless they get wise to it.

But even then I only do it once or twice because like you said having it read and punished is NOT a good thing.