[CS2] Tsubaki vs Noel

[Ginseng]

Discuss the Tsubaki vs Noel matchup here.

Things to look out for:

• Noel's drives that lead to high damage.
  
• 6B or 3C into high damage combos.
  
• 5B and 5C having much longer range and dumber hitboxes than before.
  
• Drive attacks that lead to high damage.
  
• Her air vs air options will beat Tsubaki clean on the most part.
  
• Her corner combos hurt, so you may want to burst or get out of corner pressure.
  
• Legitimate mashing out of pressure after IB or whatever.
  
  
  Things you can use:
  
  • Ground spacing
    
  • Sparingly use of 5B, some use of 2C
    
  • IB DP out of SOME strings.
    
  • Drive baiting and punishing with 236D or anything with a further punish range.
    

Edited June 2, 2011 by Ginseng

[ChiisaiRamen]

I sorely need help at this, I dont know how to deal with the plethora of invincibility noel has. It always puts a stop to any sort of pressure i can do.

Backing off can only do so much cuz noel beats most of tsubakis moves so its hard to get in.

Any ideas?

[pktazn]

I'm guessing you're talking about her drive. She doesn't have as much invincibility as you think, her drive moves are just really fast lol. The only time they're really invincible is when she first uses her drive.

[Rhiya]

It looks like most of Noel's D attacks should lose to moves that hit/low have foot attribute, except 2D.

Someone should double check me on that, though.

[ChiisaiRamen]

regardless, its still invincibility and its pretty annoying against pressure characters. Ive been watching the videos posted in the other thread and most of the matches with noel of late has tsubaki eating dirt orz

It looks like most of Noel's D attacks should lose to moves that hit/low have foot attribute, except 2D.

Someone should double check me on that, though.

thats an idea, i guess ill try that out when i get time

[pktazn]

I ment that basically you can knock her out of her drive since her invincibility frames don't last as long as you think. Maybe it's because I play her but I know if their first hit misses you have a chance to punish her before/if she continues and even interrupt her when she's starting. Most Noels will probably know at least one basic Chain Revolver BnB so be careful about getting caught by the first hit. Be patient and wait for her to make a mistake and don't try to go against her in a one-on-one rushdown fight since you'll lose haha. Also watch for which drive starters they're throwing out often and how they're trying to start her drive combo.

She can start CR from 5D, 2D, 4D, 6D, j.D, and j.4D if that helps. 5D I think has the longest reach out of all them. Just play carefully with her, she's considered top tier this time around for a reason.

I don't know what you mean by Tsubaki eating dirt (maybe we have different definitions) in the latest vids since the Tsubakis seemed to be doing well against her besides the last (3) acho one lol.

Edited May 19, 2011 by pktazn

[BatousaiJ]

I've got some good experience fighting good Noels lately and have been formulating my strategy against her.

First off, get off the idea that there's one sure fire way to beat all of Noel's wake up options. There just isn't.

Some options work for multiple situations while others are exceptionally good for certain ones.

You can beat 5D wake up everytime with a throw, you can stuff 2D with a lot of things depending on the timing on how meaty you make your option. I've found 5B a good normal to stuff 2D but it's not a surefire as it can still get beaten out if you toss it out when it just goes over the hitbox.

You can beat 2D rather easily with 214x and on CH, you can go into a full IAD combo after dash 2CC for easy damage. The good thing about the 214x option is that even if it trades, you'll still get out ahead. You can also beat 2D with 22x if they're using it in the middle of your block strings.

When a Noel starts to try to mash out of my 5C > 6B link pressure with 2D(which works), I immediately start throwing in 22C into the mix ambigiously after 5C and catch them on a CH. Tsubaki has all the tools in the world to keep a Noel player honest. If your block string doesn't throw of of these other options in there from time to time, they'll be able to mash their way out of your pressure and considering good Noel players will have you mostly dead after two 2D/5D CH hits, it's important to make sure they don't rely on it too much and if they do, to use it against them as a weakness.

4D is easily beaten with 22x as well as that has the distance to hit them without you ever being in danger of being hit by the 4D itself.

Remember for all of the uses of 214x and 22x vary depending on when you're trying to use it whether that be in the middle of a block string or on a fast approach. You can figure out which will be best to use when and it's fairly obvious.

Just be aware of what you can do when these hits do land as CH as you'll want to continue the combo afterwards to make them think twice about mashing things out.

Don't try to fight Noel air to air with j.C as you'll lose out most of the time and don't let your 2C be baited for that j.D attack as that will hurt.

Fight her on the ground, your 5B will hit her faster than her 5C can but just remember that 5B will whiff over 3C so if they catch on to that, watch out.

If you have your strat down on how to shut out her D mashing strat(pro btw), you'll be able to fight her on more or less a equal term where she'll actually have to "block" your pressure and that's where you lock them down to the corner and laugh at them.

Oh and lastly, Noel's counter assault has a bad habit of knocking her into one of Tsubaki's gatlings with auto-correct so make sure you whenever that happens.

[HexaNoid]

She can start CR from 5D, 2D, 4D, 6D, j.D, and j.4D if that helps. 5D I think has the longest reach out of all them.

5D has the longest reach out of our drives, but it doesn't have anywhere near as much invincibility as it did in CS1 so you won't have as hard a time beating it out with your normals like 5B. 6D will almost never be used as a starter (it just shouldn't) but you should be careful of it being used mid-CR as it hits low. Save your bursts for if/when you get hit by 2D/4D as it'll lead into 5k for us if you don't. j.4D crosses-up, hits low and is fast as hell, so if you see a Noel using it a certain points - like after j.B or a low IAD - remember to switch your blocking, attempt an anti-air with 2C or try and grab us when we land. Don't forget it breaks a primer on block though.

I've found 5B a good normal to stuff 2D but it's not a surefire as it can still get beaten out if you toss it out when it just goes over the hitbox.

Our 2D is pretty much free against anti-airs, so maybe try 2C'ing it if you find 5B doesn't work all the time. Or use your 214x like you said.

Fight her on the ground, your 5B will hit her faster than her 5C can but just remember that 5B will whiff over 3C so if they catch on to that, watch out.

This. I really feel that Tsubaki should stay grounded as much as possible as you have great tools for shutting down our approaches from both the air and the ground as long as you don't start jumping around. I think your 22x will beat out our 3C (someone will have to check that out though), but if all else fails just block and punish with a dash-up 2A since 3C still isn't safe on block.

Also..

Oh and lastly, Noel's counter assault has a bad habit of knocking her into one of Tsubaki's gatlings with auto-correct so make sure you whenever that happens.

Wasting 50 heat to get caught in a combo you were blocking? Feels good, man.

[ChiisaiRamen]

[redacted]

very nice, thats the kind of in depth advice i was looking for. Thanks

[Kiba]

Something that's gotten me over my saltiness over Noel, well slightly anyway.

You can use a meaty 6C Noel on her wakeup and if she attempts to do any of her drives you will get a free FC.

This is because Tsubaki's 6C covers the head, body, and foot attribute, and NONE of Noel's drives cover all three, which means no matter which one she does, it's in your favour.

You can also use 6A since it covers all three attributes too, but you want that 4.9k midscreen (or 5.1k in the corner). I think that's it, with at least 2 stocks anyway :3

Edited June 2, 2011 by Kiba

[Airk]

That's genius!

Well, pretty darn smart, anyway - the problem is that 6C, even flawlessly meaty, is still minus a bunch on block. In fact, from a frame advantage perspective, it doesn't really matter that you do it meaty - 6C does 6 hits with no gaps in between, so there really aren't any "trailing active frames" before you go into recovery, which is what doing a meaty avoids.

OTOH, obviously, the reason you do this meaty is because if your opponent sees you throwing this out, they're not going to wake up with a drive. Worst case, you can always jump cancel if you get blocked.

6C looks like a better choice than 6A, because, believe it or not, it has less startup. (Thanks, Arcsys, for giving us the worst overhead in the game. :P)

[Eshi]

you can just jump cancel 6C if it gets blocked. I'm definitely going to remember that 6C rapes all drives for situations I know they'll scrub out in.

[Kiba]

That's genius!

Well, pretty darn smart, anyway - the problem is that 6C, even flawlessly meaty, is still minus a bunch on block. In fact, from a frame advantage perspective, it doesn't really matter that you do it meaty - 6C does 6 hits with no gaps in between, so there really aren't any "trailing active frames" before you go into recovery, which is what doing a meaty avoids.

OTOH, obviously, the reason you do this meaty is because if your opponent sees you throwing this out, they're not going to wake up with a drive. Worst case, you can always jump cancel if you get blocked.

6C looks like a better choice than 6A, because, believe it or not, it has less startup. (Thanks, Arcsys, for giving us the worst overhead in the game. :P)

I have you to thank since I pretty much learnt that stuff from you. Thank you.

Also like Eshi said you can Jump cancel 6C if it gets blocked.

[Rhiya]

Airk, don't get too salty on that overhead.

I think Rachel's 4B is 28 frames, which is two frames slower~

And 6A does at least look a fair bit like 6B in startup, which Tsu does use a /lot/ now. Plus, FC and overhead serve highly different functions.

[Airk]

Rachel's overheard is slower, but it also breaks a primer on block, which is an increasingly useful function.

I need to work more 6Bs into my game.

[BatousaiJ]

Woo, that 6C against Noel wake up is handy I'll have to throw that out there more often and get some free practice on that double IAD combo, aha.

The only problem with this is while the JC on block is nice, that's an easy opportunity for the opponent to start their counter attack or escape your pressure with relative ease.

Keep the 6C in your arsenal but don't overuse it and it should be great addition to what you can use to keep Noel players from being so D spam happy.

[TheGreatReptar]

So, Eshi and Ivysaur informed me this past weekend that 2D is jab-punishable on regular block. The only drive followup that you'll lose to is Spring Raid. On instant block you can also do 5B and land a counterhit combo (assuming they did a drive followup).

[HexaNoid]

I don't think that's the case actually. On regular block our d.5C will lose to your 5/2A, but our d.6A can beat that. Also, if a Noel notices their 2D was blocked before committing to a follow-up, we can use d.4D > d.236D (Bloom Trigger) to avoid 5A/B and push you away or end a drive string safely if you block it all.

2D > 214D (Assault Through) is also an option that'll cross you up, but I haven't tested whether or not your jab can beat that out (it probably would though).

[pktazn]

Just tested it out in training, Tsubaki can jab Noel out of the 214D after 2D just like you guessed.

[Eshi]

I want to figure out EXACTLY how to punish noel's drives but I'm having difficulty interpreting the frame data for 2D. It says "10~15F can cancel into Chain Revolver followups", but what does that mean? 10-15 of the recovery frames, or active and recovery frames together? Everything else is written in a way that makes sense.

HOWEVER, solely from experience I don't like risking a punish attempt on normal block but if I instant block it (90% of the time) I get a punish. If she tries to assault through then you can just do 2A~B or something, so even if the 2A misses from the invincibility your next move won't come out and you can block/punish. I suppose 2D > 4D is safe, but honestly I don't ever expect that to happen, there's not a lot of time to make a reaction between a hit vs. blocked 2D. The moral of this story is punish 2D or you will be free to Noel forever.

Also Noel's 6A is really good now. Ground vs. Ground is the way to handle this match-up since neither of them can effectively air-to-ground the other.

[Airk]

I'm pretty sure that anytime the frame data says "From X to Y, can cancel into Z" those are "absolute" frames - i.e. you just start counting from the beginning. That seems VERY strange in the context of 2D however, because 10-15F is before the move even hits, so that can't be right. I suspect there's an error in either the translation or the mook there, since if you check the BBCS _1_ frame data, that move says it can be cancelled into followups from 40-45, not 10-15, which makes a TON more sense. I'm guessing that that's correct, since not much else seems to have changed on that move.

Given that assumption, I'd say that the move breaks out like this:

19 Frames of Startup

12 Active frames (Total 31 frames)

45 frames of recovery, but cancellable 9 frames in through 14 frames in.

However, since it's a level 4 attack, you're going to be in blockstun until frame 46, if I'm doing my math right. So unless you IB, she will have either cancelled or not before you can act. THAT said, there's nothing she can do after it that has less than 13 frames of startup (5A followup) so in theory, even if she cancels as early as possible, any normal that starts up in less than 7 frames (if she cancels on frame 40, and you start acting on frame 46, she's basically at +6) should hit her if she's in range. So yeah, it should be possible to jab her out of anything after this, assuming she doesn't do something that makes your attack miss (Like... well, 4D, I guess.)

[HexaNoid]

I suspect there's an error in either the translation or the mook there, since if you check the BBCS _1_ frame data, that move says it can be cancelled into followups from 40-45, not 10-15, which makes a TON more sense. I'm guessing that that's correct, since not much else seems to have changed on that move.

2D puts us into the air from frame 5, so it's basically saying it's cancelable after 10-15 frames of us landing - 5~30f in the air then, upon landing, we can cancel into a follow-up move after 10~15f. We still come to the same conclusion (she can only follow-up after 40~45f), but just letting you know the translation wasn't wrong or anything.

With that out of the way, I would advise not mashing out a normal after blocking a 2D since if you act even slightly too late and we're following up with d.6A, you're more than likely to get counter hit out of your jab. If you want to try anything, you might want to try DPing (which will trade I think), but again there's the problem of that being baited with a d.4D. I'll do some proper tests in training mode tomorrow and see exactly what Tsubaki can do against Noel in drive and vice versa.

[Kiba]

If Noel is using drives just IB - DP. If you're using 623A it will most likely trade. Knowing what to do and when to do it completely depends on the behaviour of the Noel player.

If Noel uses D.4D then you're pretty much screwed unless you can followup the DP with stock provided.

You don't need to outpoke Noel out of D.214D. You can IB and punish with 2A - combo.

[Eshi]

FunkyP brought this up on the ride back from CEO. Basically, Noel is the least solid top-tier character that has ever existed. She has terrible normals, no real reversal without meter, terrible pressure, and terrible mixups. She can however, herp-derp you with her partially invincible drive moves into retarded damage, which really aren't that bad once you learn to jab her after a 2D (or as I learned the hard way yesterday against a Jin online, mash the mess out of DP during a drive string).

Not entirely true. Her normals are as "bad" as Tsubaki's, and I think they're both pretty good. She doesn't have a reversal but does have one of the best CA's in the game even after its nerf. Remember Tokido at CEO? He saved ALL of his meter for CA's unless a super would end the round, she can afford to now that her average damage is so retarded. Her pressure is a lot better with the change to instant blocking and increased speed on some drives.

Yeah, you can punish 2D on block, I've gotten to the point that I can react to it about 90% of the time after blocking. But the reward for punishing with a 2A/5A combo is so pathetic compared to her reward for landing a random 2D that you ALWAYS have to adapt around the possibility. 4D is also extremely safe on block on top of being a strong drive and leading to stupid damage. She is definitely a solid character.

[Fallacy]

4D is ridiculous, suprised it doesnt get more use.