Ginseng Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Discuss the Tsubaki vs Hazama matchup here. Things to watch out for: Chains 236236B super/Jayoku Houtenjin 214D~B (flash kick) j.2C overhead 5B Things you can abuse: 2C if he tries to close in on you using chains.
Spring_Raid Posted May 18, 2011 Posted May 18, 2011 I was playing against my friend last night and 236D now clashes with chains instead instead of getting beat out by them. I'm not sure about the other versions, but this helps getting in on Hazama a bit easier....although, now we have to look out for his loop that builds 50 meter retardely fast D:
Airk Posted May 18, 2011 Posted May 18, 2011 I think it's just D; That or it's timing specific, because I've definitely been hit out of 236C by chains since the patch.
Rhiya Posted May 18, 2011 Posted May 18, 2011 Just D is fine, since charge is a lot easier to get now.
Airk Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 Good news: 236C can clash with chains too. Bad news: Neither 236C nor 236D clashes with chains RELIABLY. I don't even really know what causes it, so don't EVEN try to rely on this. If I had to guess, I would suspect that active 236C/D (heck, probably A/B too, but...) will clash with SHORT RANGE chains (Hazama's chains are kinda like two moves - they have seperate properties (hitstun etc) for when you are close and when you are far. As a rule, they suck when you're close and are dangerous when you're far.) but will get stuff by long range chains, but... don't count on this. Find another way to get around this. (Any suggestions? x.x)
Mr. Kimura Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 So 2C beats any approach via chain, even if the chain hits you?
HajinShinobi Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Can anyone with good experience or any experience at all explain abit more about this matchup?
redsilversnake Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 Can anyone with good experience or any experience at all explain abit more about this matchup? Certain people here could probably give you a good rundown, but some basic stuff from the matches I've played: As Ginseng says in the first post, 2C works well if he pulls in on a blocked chain. However, most good Hazamas won't pull in on block, so doing it on reaction might be more reliable, since 2C can be punished if he just retracts it. Unless you've got him knocked down in the corner, you may not want to charge, since it leaves you vulnerable. Instead, focus more on getting in and pushing him to the corner. I'm pretty sure Ressenga (Falling Fang; the overhead special a lot of Hazama players use after 3C) is still +2 on block, but even with the IB changes, IBing it and using 5A right afterwards might work. Jayoku is less fearsome as a reversal since the proration is shit now, but if he finishes a combo off of it properly, you're still at a disadvantage, so keep an eye on his meter and bait it if he tends to use it often. And don't be conservative with Counter Assault. He can get good damage both midscreen and in the corner, so if you have meter and he's pressuring you, use CA ASAP.
Kiba Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) I recommend only charging when you've knocked Hazama down or when you're full screen away from him. Any other time can result in him getting a free chain counter hit. Don't rely on charging though, as the player would want to stop that by constantly throwing chains at you. In case they do tend to follow up by flying in, you can AA or air throw them. The problem comes when they start to detect it and use other methods of getting in on you such as up and then around. The rassenga can be 5A'd/5B'd on reaction otherwise you can IB it and retaliate with 5a to stop further pressure. Both that and his 214D - C (Zaneiga) can even be backdashed on reaction. The problem I personally find is when they really mixup both these moves because the startup is the same (or similar) and it affects how you block. Personally I let them come to me most of the time. I don't actually enjoy playing the cat - dog game with Hazama. Since Hazama doesn't have any legit reversals without heat, it's another matchup you may choose to abuse unblockables on his wakeup for instance. Don't try to jump in on Hazama. CH 214D - B (Gashoukyaku)/2C will not only net him alot of damage but most likely the combo ender will put you in the awkward position which forces you to be on the defensive state. Be careful with blockstrings when he has heat. Be cautious using strings with alot of gaps in them such as anything into 6A/6B/Special attack. In case the player likes to poke you out of your stings, use more frame traps, such as 5CC(delay), 5C -2C and even 5B - 22C - 22A at times. When they learn to respect your 'pressure' you can mix in kara throws and overheads and other gimmicky things you'd like to do. Depending on where you are when they are throwing chains, IAD JC goes over 5D and 236C/D can easily get onto him if he does 6D. Try not get predictable on your approach too otherwise you make it easy for Hazama to counter you. Edited September 13, 2011 by Kiba
BatousaiJ Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 I'd also add that good Haz players with quick reaction 5A anti airs will shut down most jump cancel pressure you can think of so I'd recommend sticking to the ground during pressure and not to rely on the type j.CC delay tactics and IAD crossover stuff.
HajinShinobi Posted September 13, 2011 Posted September 13, 2011 To both Kiba and redsilversnake: Thanks for the in-depth insite on the matchup. This will definitely help me out some more in casuals. EDIT: Thanks for the quick note as well, BatousaiJ. Sorry I didnt see your post when I hit reply. You kinda ninja'd me lol..
Airk Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 What do folks do about Hazama using the C(?) followup on the chains? (The one that pulls him in to the opposite side of you). It seems like no matter what I do, I'm free to Chain>C followup> j.2C. It seems like if I do 2C "early" it misses him because he's crossing up, and if I do it late he just hits me. Even earlier? (My reactions may be bad.) You can jump in on him with barrier - both 2C and Stance > Gashoukyaku are heavily negative on block. He can just spam 5A to AA this and leave you at more or less neutral, but if you can train him to AA with 5A, then you can jump in with actually attacks occasionally. (Still need to space them well though.). Lots of mid-level Hazama players will mash Jayoku as a reversal in the hopes that you'll either leave a gap or drop the combo. Charge cancel eats this for breakfast. Smarter players will do this sparingly, but you have to respect it, because even with the new "nerfed" proration, a properly executed combo from a reversal Jayoku can still run you 4k.
redsilversnake Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 The rassenga can be 5A'd/5B'd on reaction otherwise you can IB it and retaliate with 5a to stop further pressure. Actually, I tested this yesterday (since I wasn't entirely sure), and it seems her 5A will trade with his 2A if you IB. However, you can DP after blocking even without IB. With the D version, anyway; forgot to check if the A version works or trades.
Airk Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 Frame data says that A DP should work without trading, assuming he does his 2A anything close to immediately. Ressenga is +2 (+5 for fully charged) which means if you DP immediately after leaving blockstun, and he mashes jab immediately upon recovery, his jab will hit you 4 frames after the end of blockstun (2A hits on frame 6) or 1 frame after the end of blockstun for the fully charged version. A DP is invulnerable from frame 1 to frame 8, so will stuff both of those. Mind you don't get baited though. If you IB and mash jab perfectly, you should hit him out of his 2A as well, but you've got to be RIGHT on with the timing to not trade.
Kiba Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 (edited) Actually, I tested this yesterday (since I wasn't entirely sure), and it seems her 5A will trade with his 2A if you IB. However, you can DP after blocking even without IB. With the D version, anyway; forgot to check if the A version works or trades. edit: Nvm Thanks. Rassenga eats her 623A usually. Edited September 14, 2011 by Kiba
Airk Posted September 14, 2011 Posted September 14, 2011 edit: Nvm Thanks. Rassenga eats her 623A usually. Yes, it will probably beat it if you try to DP the Rassenga on reaction - you should use 623B for this for its later invulnerability frames. If you're going to try to stuff the followup jab, 623A is what you want. Basically: Anticipation: 623A Reaction: 623B. That's not failsafe - but the gist is that if something trades or beats 623A because the invulnerability wears off, 623B will often work.
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