Ginseng Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Discuss the Tsubaki vs Hakumen matchup here. Things to watch out for: j.C 4C Hotaru, especially tiger knee version. 6B overhead, and 2C anti-air Things you can use: Charge if you're full screen away from him. 236x or 214x in if you're confident you will reach him. 22D unblockable can beat his counters.
Edge Reaper Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 This match-up is pure annoyance. If your BnB drops at any point (which has been a point of annoyance for me, since I'm still learning the gatlings), his counters will pummel the life out of you. Learn to love grabs.
Airk Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 If you're up against a Hakumen who likes to poke/zone with 4C, you can retaliate with 214B/C/D (Depending gauge, distance, etc) and counterhit him easily. Be wary of getting too predictable with this though, because if he decides to swing a 5C instead, he gets a juicy counterhit.
Rhiya Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Time to be obvious: Haku has low mobility outside of airdash, 2C eats airdash for breakfast.
BatousaiJ Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 Haku's wake up 2D eats your wake up pressure options outside of throws and his wake up hotaru will rock your throw option so it's really a pain in the ass to continue pressure on a Haku after you've knocked them down. When you get him in the corner, you can opt to just stay out of his 2A reach and see what he does and proceed to continue with max ranged 5B but it's quite an annoyance to fight Haku. While 2C is a great option against him when he's air dashing towards you, it can be beat with a proper timed j.D so if you're getting too obvious in 2C usage, be prepared to eat some j.D counters. Luckily, j.D counter doesn't equal massive punish anymore so as one of the people I killed for obvious reasons would used to say in regards to Tsubaki... "It's better 2C than not 2C." Also, 22D unblockable is not counterable so abuse this against defense minded Haku players and just be aware of Haku's frame traps after his 6A and don't let him 6B option frustrate you. It's slow enough to block on reaction given decent connection and he can't do anything off of it outside of RC stuff.
Airk Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 Well, you can tell if he's in a position to do wakeup Hotaru, since it requires 2 stars. While he'll USUALLY have this, he won't always, so keep an eye on that gauge in the corner when you knock him down. Properly spaced, 22D "oki" should at least be safe from wakeup Hotaru, and will stuff any counter he decides to wake up with, and, well, you can always try the ol' "mash 2A over them until just before they wake up" and see if you can bait something - a whiffed 2D gives you a ton of time for a punish. Blocked Hotaru..er..well, he wasted 2 stars, I guess. -_- Another goofy option on him at wakeup is 6A - since 2D doesn't counter high attacks, you might catch someone thinking "oooh! Here comes an attack! 2D!" only to get stuffed by the overhead. 6B is annoying, but not really very dangerous. Just condition yourself to do more high pokes and less 2A.
Eshi Posted June 9, 2011 Posted June 9, 2011 if Hakumen counters tsubaki's DP but Tsubaki specials cancels into j236D, she won't be countered. weird and sort of useful quirk.
Airk Posted June 9, 2011 Posted June 9, 2011 Huh. Right. Because the DP is considered a projectile, so Hakumen's counters do weird things as a result. Go figure. A PLUS for being a projectile.
SansProtocol Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Some overall tips: Stay aggressive, shake him up, and make him work for his stars.Bait his 4C as it is great for punishing on whiff.Stay unpredictable with your 236x shield charges. If the Haku player sees it coming, he can easily 5D/6D the move for 2k+.As it has been said before, don't over-commit with your blockstrings as any holes can be 6D/2D'd. Instead, uses throws and place delays in your blocked combos to bait the counter and punish.All of your DPs except for your Install (D) DP are projectiles, be wary of any meaty 2C/3Cs as they have 7/8 frames to cut projectiles. What will happen is your DP will miss and you will get hit by the subsequent void that was made, leading into an easy to confirm combo.You can make distance between you and the Haku player to charge (as he has to hop over to you) safely. However, I would only do so when he is low on stars. 2C any air approaches and be mindful of your distance as 4C will CH you if you charge for too long and the move leads to good corner carry.Finally, keep him in the corner and if you have to, midscreen. Hakumen has a vicious corner game and it would be best to avoid the situation. Hope this helps.
BatousaiJ Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 ^^ Good info. One fun method to shutting down Haku countering your 236x option is to stop it short on purpose with 236A/B and then go directly in 22D/214D. This will result in your stopping short and whooping them in the face with a counter hit with a sub-sequential attack.
SansProtocol Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 ^^ Good info. One fun method to shutting down Haku countering your 236x option is to stop it short on purpose with 236A/B and then go directly in 22D/214D. This will result in your stopping short and whooping them in the face with a counter hit with a sub-sequential attack. If he's REALLY familiar with Tsubaki's timing, he can CH 3C her out of her charge. Cancelling into 214D/22D makes no difference as they have no foot invul. I never said anything because most Haku players I know would either just block or do a counter because it's a bit risky, but the option's there.
BatousaiJ Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 You can use a lot of moves to hit her out of her 236x, the choice between the various versions of 236 is a method of feint to the point where you'll only go a few feet or barely half screen to cancel. If the Haku uses 3C counting on the timing of 236C/D(the ones you'd expect), they'll whiff completely and will be at the mercy of the follow up. This could backfire in the way that they'll just expect you to stop short and then try to punish you for it but at that point, you can switch it up and go for 236C/D which will be to your advantage.
SansProtocol Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 That is true. Being far enough away to cancel in time with 22D/214D but not too far where move whiffs is the main issue. If you know the sweet spot, you're good. Thanks for the information, Batousai.
BatousaiJ Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I haven't played a good Haku player in ages. I've heard good things about your Haku, Sans. It's guys like you and AXIS that makes me want to get BB for my 360 as well but the whole controller barrier keeps me away since I'm a pad warrior and I'd rather not play than to use the 360 pad to play BB.
SansProtocol Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I haven't played a good Haku player in ages. I've heard good things about your Haku, Sans. It's guys like you and AXIS that makes me want to get BB for my 360 as well but the whole controller barrier keeps me away since I'm a pad warrior and I'd rather not play than to use the 360 pad to play BB. I heard you're one of the few Tsubakis to fear from the other mainers, so if you ever do pick up a Fightpad or get used to stick, add me on XBL. mAc's a much more complete Haku overall, AdventusXVII has crazy good offense, and I'm good with high risk situations (counters and the like, even though I get frustrated and mash at times). Those two other than I would be the best to get practice with on XBL.
Kiba Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 Just a little more info: As Sans pointed out you do not want to end up in the corner against Hakumen. One of the things to watch out for is Kishuu? mixups in particular when he's packing alot of magatamas. Don't get too obvious with bursts since Hakumen can counter it with D. How humiliating is that? On your wakeup, you're better off blocking. Hotaru beats reversal DD and all DPs including the D version, which gets Hak a free fatal. It's times like this where I wonder why exactly those specials carry projectile properties. Doesn't really seem to add up. Hakumen can beat our 2C with his J2C(or it might be J2A) if he doesn't IAD too deep on us.
EdWORLD Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 if Hakumen counters tsubaki's DP but Tsubaki specials cancels into j236D, she won't be countered. weird and sort of useful quirk. I noticed when I canceled 236C with 214D against his distortion reversal, Tsubaki recovered without being countered. Not sure if it's applied the same way as this, and haven't tested it by itself or with other 214's but will test it out as soon as I get a PS3 >< Also, as a side not Hakumen can void bursts, so random gold bursts against him might to be fruitful either.
Airk Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 I noticed when I canceled 236C with 214D against his distortion reversal, Tsubaki recovered without being countered. Not sure if it's applied the same way as this, and haven't tested it by itself or with other 214's but will test it out as soon as I get a PS3 >< This is odd - the Yukikaze attack has foot attribute, so should hit any of the 214 series attacks at any time without issue. o.o I'm starting to wonder if there's something weird that happens when you D-cancel.
SansProtocol Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Don't get too obvious with bursts since Hakumen can counter it with D. How humiliating is that? To add to this, don't burst after the 2C relaunch or j.2a during Hakumen's corner combo. It's an easy to block/avoid and will get you reset into 2C again. Hakumen can beat our 2C with his J2C(or it might be J2A) if he doesn't IAD too deep on us. Yes, however take the opportunity to punish a Hakumen for doing it when you're not charging by dashing forward a bit and using the forward momentum to slide 2C. Usually beats j.2C every time. This is odd - the Yukikaze attack has foot attribute, so should hit any of the 214 series attacks at any time without issue. o.o I'm starting to wonder if there's something weird that happens when you D-cancel. You can cancel into the D versions of moves quicker than the others. You have to have enough distance/time to cancel (27F) into 214D. Since Yukikaze is only 27F long, any cancel will beat it if it's used to react to your charge.
Airk Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 You can cancel into the D versions of moves quicker than the others. You have to have enough distance/time to cancel (27F) into 214D. Since Yukikaze is only 27F long, any cancel will beat it if it's used to react to your charge. Ohhhh. So it's about not triggering it in the first place by using a cancel to delay hitting him. Got it. Makes sense now.
BatousaiJ Posted August 3, 2011 Posted August 3, 2011 Timing 2C to hit Haku out of his j.2C is a bit of a pain sometimes do the j.2C hitting fast sometimes because of its hitbox. It's easy enough to get em during their IAD but smart Hakus will bait it using double jumps off super jumps and etc to make it ambiguous. The good news is j.D isn't that big of a deal, you'll hit em out of air tsubaki and if they option select hotaru before landing it won't hit you while you're crouched most of the time. The biggest annoyance of this match up is delaying and changing up your offensive rhythm as if you keep attacking the moment you can, you'll be predictable to counters and if you keep going in to throw, it will be easy for them to 3C CH you out of your approach. Bit of a mindgame approach from the very beginning to end. I feel like the match up is easier from CS 1 since Tsu's a better character now but it's never quite safe to sleep on a Haku.
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