[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

[Adam0812]

Nah it's not a typo. You can use any version but I listed j.236B because its more consistent using it on a grounded opponent. I've had situations where the j.236A would hit when it's supposed to whiff.

I did not know this and was unsure whether you could actually do the whiff corner combo's on a grounded opponent (as I always use 236a, usually after some sort of knockdown), good to know keebs, thanks

[Surf]

Whoa, 236236C starter > 236D connects midscreen

[Errol]

Whoa, 236236C starter > 236D connects midscreen

yeah. old news, but it is cool.

[Airk]

Whoa, 236236C starter > 236D connects midscreen

I think I saw it with 236236D too in Overdrive (so you have charge after the super) and I definitely saw Super > [4]6D > 236D.

[Surf]

So who else here will be using OD on match start. I know against certain characters (Hazama, Nu, Rachel, etc) quite often. And what characters do you think ODing at low health will be beneficial against

[FatalCounter]

Kiba, I watced your video; GG. I swear I played you this summer holiday. I am pretty sure I sent you a message and you answered me back. Play offline is so great. I need a BB training partner but my brother is too lazy for this. NVM we have some similarities in the playstyle

- 22A for punishing any player getting in while I am charging. Thid is my main tool vs Ragna and Tager.

- 236B for closing the gap after a 22X.

- 236X RC > ... only for resetting the pressure.

- 214D for punishing any random move made by the opponent.

And some differences.

- You love rushdown!!!! Yes Tsubaki is a rushdown character but guy take some breath because Tsubaki moves are not that great and it is is easy to get punished. You are pretty good at rushing down but you get punished many times. For me after some rushdown on characters with DP, I prefer to do 5B or 6C> AID back charging a bit on ground. This gives me some space, give the space to my opponent to take some risks getting in and can bait random DPs, who knows?

- I saw you missed some AID after AA or a bad 2CC positioning. This happened to me several times. Now I never use the AID in these cases, I simply prefer jCC slowly and it works pretty well and I don't need to j back then AD forward.

- I love to move a lot when I play her, pretty like Kuresu. I think he inspired me. Unlike me, you prefer to move slower but focusing on where your opponent is.

Overall, you are really good and this is the first time I have seen your matches. Maybe all the Tsubaki players here have this level. It means we are all great, lol.

[Kiba]

So who else here will be using OD on match start. I know against certain characters (Hazama, Nu, Rachel, etc) quite often. And what characters do you think ODing at low health will be beneficial against

It's a good idea to use it against zoners, but I may also use it against Ragna as well, but then again it may not matter much now that we have the command grab against him. OD'ing at low health I think is more beneficial against the zoners, but that is not to say it is not good using it in the holes of player's pressure. Funny you should bring this up becaue I was thinking about being using the burst offensively as Tsubaki,

but defensively as Valk lol.

If you can long out the round, you have the chance to get the burst back and use it defensively if you have to.

Kiba, I watced your video; GG. I swear I played you this summer holiday. I am pretty sure I sent you a message and you answered me back. Play offline is so great.

Oh really what's your PSN? This sounds familiar however.

- You love rushdown!!!! Yes Tsubaki is a rushdown character but guy take some breath because Tsubaki moves are not that great and it is is easy to get punished. You are pretty good at rushing down but you get punished many times. For me after some rushdown on characters with DP, I prefer to do 5B or 6C> AID back charging a bit on ground. This gives me some space, give the space to my opponent to take some risks getting in and can bait random DPs, who knows?

Tsubaki has a few relatively good moves for pressure: 5A, 2B, and 6B. 5A is good for basic mixup attempts and throw attempts (including scoring TRMs), 2B has low recovery so it's good for reseting pressure (Kid caught on to this however and poked me out), and that's the same with 6B. The problem with 6B is just the gap it has between blockstrings, so when Kid punished me, it wasn't because I was doing the wrong thing but because he was doing the right thing. As you said, I love rushdown, and I don't like hanging back much unless I have no choice (Tager). In my case where I was getting hit out of my things, I could have opted for frame traps, or even used nothing after 6BB to bait DPs. Sure it's easy to get punished once someone can see the holes, but that's not gonna stop me from trying to pound the player's face in. The aim is really to frustrate the opponent into pressing buttons so letting up will jut give them the breathing space that they want.

If you wanted to be really spiffy you could TK stuff from 6C to open more pressure opportunites for yourself. Ocassionally I use 6C > TK214D/TK236D, just ask Errol or Daedron.

Overall, you are really good and this is the first time I have seen your matches.

Thanks I really appreciate it.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Kiba

[Surf]

It's a good idea to use it against zoners, but I may also use it against Ragna as well, but then again it may not matter much now that we have the command grab against him. OD'ing at low health I think is more beneficial against the zoners, but that is not to say it is not good using it in the holes of player's pressure. Funny you should bring this up becaue I was thinking about being using the burst offensively as Tsubaki,

but defensively as Valk lol.

If you can long out the round, you have the chance to get the burst back and use it defensively if you have to.

I was thinking of using it against Ragna too, but yes the inclusion of command grab makes that the more favorable option out of the two. Sitting on about 2.5-3 charges near the start of a round against a zoner is a very good spot to be. And if you manage to get in before you use any of the charge and land command grab that's already 4-5 charges you have. At a very high advantage and being able to deal a good chunk of damage on your next confirm. Against non zoners I'll most likely see how the player plays and if OD'ing early will benefit me or not. Im still surprised that you get the Burst back at around the 20-30ish mark within the match if you use it at the start. I'll probably be using it very often so I can focus on rushdown and put charging on the backburner.

5CC > Mugen > 3D's > 6C > [4]6D > 236D > 5C > 2C > 236 214 22

5432 DMG, 2 charges, Midscreen

Holy shiiii

Don't know if it was clarified before but 3CC is now a FC. And not just 3C

Edited December 27, 2012 by Surf

[Kiba]

Yup.

I also forgot to mention that even though 214B has SMP you can still opt to use the 236X > 214B > 22B rather than the air ender and not be penalised, much, lol. For some reason I expected the opponent to tech immediately form the 22B but that was not the case. Good to know.

I'm going to assume that 22D > 6C > CT > Dash 5C > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5C > 2C > 236X > 214B > 22B works, and it's nice to see. Kuresu beat him with the 2C ender so we cant see the full combo in action, however, that was already 4.3k. Might also be important to note that CT > dash 5C doesn't seem to work on Bullet, so we have to use 2B instead.

I know we earn better damage from 6A now, though I'm not sure Kuresu should be opting to go for 6A resets often...

Edited December 30, 2012 by Kiba

[Surf]

Depending on the character or how the player acts ill choose wither 22 ender or air ender will be mote beneficial for me. I thought that a repeated 214B would make them tech instantly with the smp but its good to know it doesnt. Loving how much damage she gets from 6A with only a charge, 3k is a bit sad to get excited about but its alot for us. Midscreen we have a close 6A confirm combo and a far one, the close one is a bit more damage and meter but the dash 5A after the DP whiff looks somewhat strict. 236 214 22 probably always will be the safer route.

I actually didnt see the 22D combo you were talking about Kiba, but unfinished and alreafy 4.3k? Thats a ton. And is it me... Or are people getting hit by 6B/BB a lot.

[Kiba]

Loving how much damage she gets from 6A with only a charge, 3k is a bit sad to get excited about but its alot for us. Midscreen we have a close 6A confirm combo and a far one, the close one is a bit more damage and meter but the dash 5A after the DP whiff looks somewhat strict. 236 214 22 probably always will be the safer route.

I actually didnt see the 22D combo you were talking about Kiba, but unfinished and alreafy 4.3k? Thats a ton. And is it me... Or are people getting hit by 6B/BB a lot.

Not sure why people are getting hit by 6BB, especially after a 5CC....

3k from an overhead midscreen is pretty good damage.

We know that 6A > 5CC > 214D > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5C > 2C > 236X > 214B > 22B nets us about 2.8k, but since the SMP 214B doesn't effect us much I'm even more curious to know how much damage 6A > 5CC > 6BB > 214B > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5C > 2C > 236X > 214B > 22B gives us. Then we'd know whether 214D is worth using.

The combo I'm referring to is here.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Kiba

[Surf]

The combo I'm referring to is here.

The combo probably would've added up to a little under 5k or so. But it's harder to get 22D as a starter now since its no longer unblockable. Some viable ways I can think of is training them to try to press a button after a 6B, so you can framtrap them with 22D. The second 6A combo you listed could probably work, but I think at most itll do about 2.3-4kish. Absence of the 214D would probably shave about 500 dmg off

[Airk]

Not sure why people are getting hit by 6BB, especially after a 5CC....

Wild guess, but:

Fear of command grab makes them want to jump?

[FatalCounter]

We know that 6A > 5CC > 214D > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5C > 2C > 236X > 214B > 22B nets us about 2.8k, but since the SMP 214B doesn't effect us much I'm even more curious to know how much damage 6A > 5CC > 6BB > 214B > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5C > 2C > 236X > 214B > 22B gives us. Then we'd know whether 214D is worth using.

I don't think it will work; too much hit there!!! maybe without 6BB but 214B has the a bad proration compared to 214D. I don't think Kuresu is stupid enough to not add 6BB if he could; for more damage. That means to me that it doesn't work because he always loves to do optimum combos. 6A is good but not one her best starter

Maybe I am wrong, we will see.

[Surf]

Wild guess, but:

Fear of command grab makes them want to jump?

I was actually going to say that in my earlier post but forgot. They probably react to the gap before 6B actually comes out by trying to jump, thinking it may be a run in command grab setup. But since their not holding 1/2/3 6B catches them as a low. Its very possible, since I havnt seen it happen so many times before and people do indeed fear command grab.

I don't think it will work; too much hit there!!! maybe without 6BB but 214B has the a bad proration compared to 214D. I don't think Kuresu is stupid enough to not add 6BB if he could; for more damage. That means to me that it doesn't work because he always loves to do optimum combos. 6A is good but not one her best starter

Remember proration no longer works the way it used to any longer. It's possible the combo may work without the 6BB but like I mentioned earlier, the damage would probably be pretty meh. And the timing could possibly be pretty strict as well. 6A is a much much better starter than it was before, but she does indeed have better ones to choose from. Just trying to go through the most optimal routes for her confirms is all.

[FatalCounter]

A rushdown character with a command grab is the worst thing to deal with. Fortunately Bang command grab is slow and the recovery is terrible. I never want to block the wolf in the corner, his command grab is fast and the recovery is amazing. Tsubaki CG is fast though even if the recovery seems not that great.

This is scary even for a Tsubaki player like Me, 960 DM + 2 free charges for a better combo. what do you think? Jump is just a reflex.

[Adam0812]

With bang though, if anticipate a command grab and he doesn't, his normals always seem to catch me jumping out, his 5a feels like a mini ragna 5b

[Surf]

Bangs usually 2A for a low if your trying to upback to avoid his command grab. I still to this day wish that Tsubaki's 2A was a low. But anyways, Happy New Years fellow redheads

[Airk]

Bangs usually 2A for a low if your trying to upback to avoid his command grab. I still to this day wish that Tsubaki's 2A was a low. But anyways, Happy New Years fellow redheads

I don't think it actually makes that much difference - you can't block during jump startup anyway, right?

[Surf]

Im pretty sure the blockstun from an earlier normal and the Bang going into 2A while your holding up back will catch you before jump startup even begins. If they time it right

[FatalCounter]

It is pretty hard to see a Bang palyer start his pressure with 2A except from the corner. Generally they use 5A > 66 > 5A >..... and make you guess between low (2A or 6A) and high (5C or 6B). At least the bang I play against use this kind of tool. It is pretty easy to jump out his 2A though.

Edited January 1, 2013 by FatalCounter

[Airk]

Im pretty sure the blockstun from an earlier normal and the Bang going into 2A while your holding up back will catch you before jump startup even begins. If they time it right

Oh; So you're saying that he's hitting you with 2A while you're still in blockstun because you're upbacking? I guess that would be true if he does 5A > 2A, but I don't think Bang is generally in position to command grab off of a 5A without dashing in first, and that means you're out of blockstun since his 5A is +0.

[GenoWhirl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWRQ14oTODg&feature=youtu.be surprised this isn't here

[Errol]

there are 2 changes in CP I'm very interested in.

1. 5a (air hit)> 2c connects in CP. it connects in CS2. it does not connect in CSEX. 5a and 2c have identical frame data in CS2 and CSEX.

2. crouching, 5bb>3c works in CSEX. in CP, 5b>3c works, and 5bb>3c does not work.

I'm not really sure what the theoretical explanation for this is. I feel like it's that the cancel point on these moves is now earlier. But I also remember discussion about how frame difference on charge cancels only depends on the attack level of the move, which would seem to be wrong if that's the case.

One way or another, It seems to me like 5a>5b might not have a gap anymore, and 5b>5bb certainly doesn't

[Airk]

there are 2 changes in CP I'm very interested in.

1. 5a (air hit)> 2c connects in CP. it connects in CS2. it does not connect in CSEX. 5a and 2c have identical frame data in CS2 and CSEX.

I'm at a loss on this one, honestly. No idea what could possibly cause this.

2. crouching, 5bb>3c works in CSEX. in CP, 5b>3c works, and 5bb>3c does not work.

Are you saying that 5B > 3C works on crouchers in CP? Assuming that you are talking about crouching characters for all your examples:

5B > 3C should work on crouchers in EX as well, since for many purposes 5BB and 5B are identical. That said, they've clearly made some changes to 5BB in CP - it has an obviously shorter hitbox, for example - so it wouldn't shock me if they'd modified it in some way to make 5BB > 3C not work (Probably a lower attack level?)

I'm not really sure what the theoretical explanation for this is. I feel like it's that the cancel point on these moves is now earlier. But I also remember discussion about how frame difference on charge cancels only depends on the attack level of the move, which would seem to be wrong if that's the case.

Well, that assertion is based on the assumption that you can charge cancel after the first active frame. But Tsubaki's moves with followups have custom cancel windows - though it's not clear if those are only on whiff or not. The math seems to work so that 5B > 5BB would combo even if you had to wait until frame 17 to cancel into 5BB though, so I dunno. I don't think this would impact charge cancels, however.

One way or another, It seems to me like 5a>5b might not have a gap anymore, and 5b>5bb certainly doesn't

5A > 5B not having a gap means either they raised the attack level on 5A (Possible, but unlikely) or they made 5B faster again (More likely); All that's required here is moving 5B back to it's CS2 9 frames of startup to remove the gap after 5A. 5BB could be faster as well, or the cancel window from 5B > 5BB could have changed.

The mook can't come out soon enough for me.