Airk Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 46C->46A 6a -> 22f 2b -> 10f character specific combos fixed 5bb hits higher (don't care about farther, I want easy air confirms) These are all excellent and frankly, would probably make her really solid all by themselves. But if we're making wishlists I'd also like and/all of the below: 2C unnerfed (Still don't understand why it was changed in the first place, when so many other characters got good AAs.) 5BB to step forward again like it used to (It doesn't even LOOK right right now.) Remove recovery on charging, ESPECIALLY j.D, but might as well do them all. Charge cancelling won't get any better because you leave the minimum 18F duration. There's really no reason for our drive to be penalized like this. Hitbox added to the tip of the sword (I mean, FFS, it's a sword!) on 623X. Unblockable back please. Or at least, charged 22D guardbreaks without barrier the same way Platinum's hammer does.
Airk Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Please look at our framedata and laugh a good time. Every single of our move is negative (except 6b duh). Because arcsys think we can cancel by 5D so it's fine, but it's not. We are rushdown, we need pluses somewhere, or our threat level will never be as it should. I disagree; Look at most characters that aren't ****ing Hazama and you'll discover that having more than one move that is plus is pretty rare. I don't think we need more moves that are plus, we just need our actual offense to be more threatening - which is why I like Errol's changes to 6A and 2B, and why I think it'd be super excellent to lose the landing recovery on j.D. When i watch Konan or Kuresu play, they play very unsafe, they could get punished much more often, but japanese players are more "respectful" and mash less than europeans who get irritated much easier See, here you're wrong. They're not "more respectful" in general. They're more respectful of Konan and Kuresu, because these guys have earned it.
Zouf Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Moves which are plus aren't so rare. And all rushdown characters (except shitty ones like bullet) have a way to reset the pressure at some point. We are truly lacking this now. I don't think my suggestions are so off. Maybe 5CC > 6B being blockstring is a little too much, but less punishable would still be great. And Konan and Kuresu have earned respect because their game sense is above the rest, but they still play unsafe nonetheless, and the framedata will never fail on me on this one.
Airk Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Moves which are plus aren't so rare. And all rushdown characters (except shitty ones like bullet) have a way to reset the pressure at some point. We are truly lacking this now. I don't think my suggestions are so off. Maybe 5CC > 6B being blockstring is a little too much, but less punishable would still be great. Yeah? What's Ragna's pressure reset? Dead spike at -1? 2C with it's huuuuge range? Blood Scythe with it's "just wait for me to leap sloooowly up into the air" animation? (Seriously. 37 frames of startup? Making Dead Spike look fast!) Exactly which rushdown characters DO have good ways to reset pressure? Bang with Tk D-nails? Sure, there's Tao, but she's Tao. It's not like she actually has moves that are plus. I am actually in favor of REMOVING easy pressure resets from characters who have them (F- you, Hazama!) not adding more. And honestly, the difference between 6B being +1 and +2 is trivial. Punish people who mash jab with 6BB or 22B (especially now that 22B CH is GOOD, rather than the crappy like 1.5k you got from it in Extend.). No one is going to be able to REACT to you dashing in after 6B. And Konan and Kuresu have earned respect because their game sense is above the rest, but they still play unsafe nonetheless, and the framedata will never fail on me on this one. They play unsafe because they can. If you were that good, you could do it too. Ever seen how many DPs Daigo Umehara throws out? It doesn't really have anything to do with frame data.
Zouf Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 ok i guess i'm asking for too much then. My bad.
TheGreatReptar Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 I want Tsubaki to have blackhole. Give her back unblockable 22D so she can have crappy blackhole.
Kiba Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Are we really doing this? Some of the things said here are a little too demanding, ha (particularly 22D unblockable being brought back and 5CC > 6B being gapless). I'll be honest though, when I see Tsubaki players doing 5CC > 6B I'm trying to buffer DP to get 'em. 6B is the only gatling you have left from 5CC which is why I prefer to do something like 5B/5C > 6B. Spaced 5CC > 6B can work too, but that means you'll be out of range to kinda followup and you'll lose to mashing. Anyway, this wishlist stuff isn't my thing but my list would be what Errol posted. 6A being 23 frames startup is good enough for me. I'm not bothered about 2B being stronger since I'm pretty content with 3.5k in the corner with CT and 1 charge, albeit the hitconfirm is a little demanding since you have to do 2B > 5C > 22D. Her unblockable is most likely never coming back and personally I'd rather it stayed that way. Seems like I want stuff harder for me but I don't. We're all sick of getting disrespected but I just learn to work around it. Dunno what you guys are doing, but I use a lot of 5A pressure. I won't say remove all the character specific stuff; the one I'm particularly agitated about is using the 6C > j.D > j.C route on characters, and one of the ways to fix that would be increasing j.C's hitbox. Tsubaki's damage is fine right now and I hope they don't do anything to nerf it, but I would like a little more untechable time on j.214D counter hit so we can followup with 6C afterwards. If anything were to get nerfed, 623C would probably be the main offender here I think. Not only is the vertical range kinda silly, but the blockstun is actually quite high for a DP, making it just a little difficult to punish. Though I suppose they could let us off with this one since Tsubaki can get hit out of her DP in many silly ways. When i watch Konan or Kuresu play, they play very unsafe, they could get punished much more often, but japanese players are more "respectful" and mash less than europeans who get irritated much easier It's pretty much what Airk said about them gaining the respect of their opponents. I'm not sure who it was, I think it was both Konan and Kuresu, that use blocked 6B into 6A. That's hella ballsy but hey it works for them! If I used it here in Europe I'd just get thrown out of it. You're gonna have to take risks with Tsubaki in order to open up your opponent sometimes. Believe me when I say I tried playing the safe game and that doesn't get me anywhere. Almost everything I do is unsafe but it works for me. Spinoza probably plays the safest out of all them iirc, but if you think Konan and Kuresu play unsafe, remember Pikuri? The main point is that it works for them though. Edited January 30, 2014 by Kiba
EXonestar Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I want Tsubaki to have blackhole. Give her back unblockable 22D so she can have crappy blackhole. 22D needs to stay away from CP. getting 4-5k off that in Extend when there was no such thing as OD. She'll bust heads with 22D (Unblockable) with OD. Dunno what you guys are doing, but I use a lot of 5A pressure. I won't say remove all the character specific stuff; the one I'm particularly agitated about is using the 6C > j.D > j.C route on characters, and one of the ways to fix that would be increasing j.C's hitbox. Tsubaki's damage is fine right now and I hope they don't do anything to nerf it, but I would like a little more untechable time on j.214D counter hit so we can followup with 6C afterwards I agree with these minor wishlist changes. (its the little things they'll make her slightly better.) Her normals may not be amazing in the frame advantage department but that's ok~ Look at jin for example (6b is +on block just like tsubaki )
Daedron Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Agree with all of the above, Tsubaki just needs some quality of life changes and that's about it. Also unblockable is most likely gone because [4]6D > 236D allows you to set it up on hit with, afaik, no way to escape it from hittin you at full charge without an invul move. So unless you want your hitstun on that move to become worse to the point you can no longer followup 6C then yeah, don't expect it back. She also honestly doesn't need it.
Zouf Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 She can't lose her DP. She hasn't such a great neutral game (lol) that she can lose her mighty reversal, especially in this version of the game I don't know, I want Tsubaki to reach the top, i'm tired of getting around stuff just for her to be viable, i want her to be a real threat. She deserves it. She was (is?) low tier from the first day, that's kinda silly. Anyway i'll be more than happy if they fix all the whiffy shit from her already. I guess dropping combo because is part of why i'm getting irritated by her gameplay.
EXonestar Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Tbh with the way arc sys balaces games. I just hope she gets out alive. I mean come on.....look at makoto. No offence to her in particular but look at how she is basically outclassed by a large majority of the cast. Be happy tsubaki is more viable in a sense you can win with her lol.... and before anyone says "but Goro" ,take away Goro and who else makes makoto look good. Yeah....arc system balancing and changes. As long as tsubaki remains viable we should be happy wih what minor improvements we get lol if they suddenly make her too ill be shocked tbh.
Kiba Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 'Tsubaki doesn't get nice things' ~ The headmistress herself (Pktazn) I have very low expectations of Tsubaki. I don't see her getting top, but if she does then cool. Zouf it seems like you're expecting quite a bit of Tsubaki and the thing is I don't think she'll be extremely good unless they kinda change her around completely. DP is gonna have to be fixed, they are gonna have to play around with her normals (including her air normals) etc. Hey, if you want to use a threatening character, the Valk forums await.
EXonestar Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Pktazn has spoken! I really hope they dont do anything stupid to her. Fair enough she may not even change but they best not ruin her......after she just got better :/ Also zouf did want a character wih crazy frame adv. Hazama awaits tbf lol. 5a 6b 214d~a 5b ...jeeez
Airk Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Also unblockable is most likely gone because [4]6D > 236D allows you to set it up on hit with, afaik, no way to escape it from hittin you at full charge without an invul move. So unless you want your hitstun on that move to become worse to the point you can no longer followup 6C then yeah, don't expect it back. She also honestly doesn't need it. Er, what? No? [4]6D>236D only has 20 frames of blockstun (which incidentally has no relation to how much hitstun it has, so it could easily be changed without influencing the ability to followup with 6C on hit). There's no way you're setting up an unblockable that takes 39 frames to connect off a move with 20 frames of blockstun. Even cancelling out of the aura on the very first frame, your opponent would still have 19 frames to punch you in the face. [4]6D>236D aura is good, but it's not THAT good. It's not even CLOSE to THAT good. In fact, it's probably not even as good as the OLD j.236D > j.214D aura, and the only way you could set up an unblockable off that was with a rapid cancel. There would be no 'free' unblockables here. (That said, the frame data on the shield rush aura doesn't really add up, but even if we assume that it's 30 frames of blockstun, they can STILL jab you out of an unblockable.) Anyway, I think the rest of the cast has BS that is just as good as this, lots of which doesn't even cost any resources. I'm with Zouf. Tsubaki deserves to actually be strong for one game. It's stupid how characters like Hazama are top tier every game as if Arc is afraid to touch them while Tsubaki's best incarnation was basically square in the middle of the pack. Anyway, at the very least, they need to fix the character specificity of her stuff. Yes, fine, we can keep a few character specific combos that are BETTER than average, but this whole "Well, on these six characters you need to use THIS version of this basic combo, and on THESE twelve characters you need to use THIS version, and on 4 other characters you need to use a THIRD version, and on three other characters you can't use this combo at all." stuff HAS to go. There's NO reason for that. And honestly, the thing that bothers me the MOST about Tsubaki is how there's basically no reason for why half her stuff is as dumb as it is. I also disagree with the, as far as I can tell, completely unfounded opinion that you somehow need to "change her around completely" to make her good. Sorry Kiba, but I think you're completely wrong on that. Hell, weren't people just saying "OMG, just bringing the unblockable back would make her too strong!"? Because that's about as far from a 'complete redesign' as you can get. Hell, removing recovery from j.D would make a huge difference, and that's about as minor a change as you can get. Take all of Errol's suggestions, add no more landing recovery on j.D, and you have a pretty sick character with fast mixup, excellent pressure resets by using jump cancel normals into a sort of swallow moon mixup with j.D and you've basically made nothing that even resembles a 'complete' change to the character. This is almost as silly as statements like "Litchi will always be good." (don't get me started.) I also disagree that there's anything wrong with her DP, but that's opinion. :P Edited January 30, 2014 by Airk
EXonestar Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 What Airk said about hazama being top tier (even though they claim hes been nerfed each game) and tsubaki always getting square middle is an example of arc systems balancing at its finest. It seems like. For tsu its middle or bottom....
Airk Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 What Airk said about hazama being top tier (even though they claim hes been nerfed each game) and tsubaki always getting square middle is an example of arc systems balancing at its finest. It seems like. For tsu its middle or bottom.... Yeah. They 'nerf' him the same way they 'buff' Tsubaki - by nerfing/buffing and then saying "But these changes would be too radical by themselves!" and then buffing/nerfing to compensate so that nothing really changes that much. Good job guys, way to fine tune the game.
Errol Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 airk he said on hit, 46d236d has 38 frames of HITtstun, and 22d is like 39f startup
Kiba Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) I also disagree with the, as far as I can tell, completely unfounded opinion that you somehow need to "change her around completely" to make her good. Sorry Kiba, but I think you're completely wrong on that. Hell, weren't people just saying "OMG, just bringing the unblockable back would make her too strong!"? Because that's about as far from a 'complete redesign' as you can get. Hell, removing recovery from j.D would make a huge difference, and that's about as minor a change as you can get. Take all of Errol's suggestions, add no more landing recovery on j.D, and you have a pretty sick character with fast mixup, excellent pressure resets by using jump cancel normals into a sort of swallow moon mixup with j.D and you've basically made nothing that even resembles a 'complete' change to the character. This is almost as silly as statements like "Litchi will always be good." (don't get me started.) Sigh. Originally this post was going to be an essay but I really really can't be bothered. I never said there is no doubt that with the changes Tsubaki would be better. Read my post again, I didn't say there isn't anything from stopping her from being much better, I said top tier. I said I don't think she'll be EXTREMELY GOOD. Tsubaki is rewarded with a faster 6A/2B, bigger hitbox on 5BB, 46A and reduced recovery on j.D. What are you left with? I think you're overexaggerating on the swallow moon mixup too. Edited January 30, 2014 by Kiba
BatousaiJ Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I would like a cupcake. And maybe some strawberry ice cream.
Errol Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 they're changing the ground fireball into a command move, no more charging. which is pretty awesome
Kiba Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) So that leaves HCF and 421 input, both of which I wouldn't want. Edited January 30, 2014 by Kiba
Shruikon Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I don't see what it could change to except a half circle forward or backwards DP.
Kiba Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Actually they could potentially do 46C instead of [4]6C. That's an option, but I guess rather than speculate, I'll just wait and see what happens. The best thing.
Errol Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I dont think I would mind either of those.. better than 46C for sure, to me.
BatousaiJ Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I don't know about you guys but 46C screwed me up a fair few times when I blocked a DP and tried to punish with 6CC > etc etc and got a 46C instead so I would prefer backwards DP or HCF just fine.
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