GGXXAC+ Rebalancing, Features, and Overall Wishlist Thread

[AKA]

I agree that minor nerfs can have as large of an effect as minor buffs, and that's why I'm apprehensive about too many people requesting balance changes without a completely new version.

The nice thing about this change to meter gain is that the 'top 6' characters can already combo/mixup without using their meter and rack up a lot of tension doing so. All of the other characters who have to spend tension on their combos need to find their meter other ways. The difference between getting to use meter on mixup/pressure/defense and having to blow it on FRCs is huge.

It's really hard for me to agree with placing Bridget into a weak category like this. I think it's just lack of exposure to really sick Bridget players due to high execution requirements. Bridget's movement and ranged options are very hard for some characters to deal with at a high level.

When comparing Bridget to everyone else in the way he enjoys the use of AC specific system mechanics and the useful(less)ness of his new moves? He's trash. Ruu or another super sick character specialist being good with him is not indicative of how good the character is. I agree that the character is very hard to play, and that Bridget's movement and ranged options give a lot of characters trouble on principle. The problem is screwing up one time and losing because you guessed right 20 times and Slayer, or Eddie, or Potemkin, or Jam, or May, etc etc guesses right once and negates all of that work.

I honestly think if he did a little more damage, he would be fine.

[Hellmonkey]

Bridget does decent damage from my experience in Japan. I can't describe all of the character's specifics, but the character really is not that bad IMO.

One thing I can remember is really good use of yo-yo 1F pullback.

Bridget seems like a character with one of the hardest learning curves in the game. I just hate singling out this character as weak when Bridget has options like cancelling yoyo and using the yoyo for air movement.

If we compare this difficulty to the difficulty of a character like Anji across the board, or Zappa utilizing his different summons, I think Bridget's strengths can definitely be applied.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[reaVer]

Eddie already gets a virtual free refill off of a triple unblockable (if they live). I am removing the third unblockable, and thus the 100% he will get in idealized setups. You're talking about something that already exists.

No, now he has to hit his third unblockable. If you give him the quicker refill, he doesn't need to go for third unblockable because he can go back to mawaru loop straight away (which in terms of execution is much safer!).

Two separate mach drill unblockables (that lead into themselves) off of sweep (or CH gold burst) will lead to damage that high. There's no debate, because it exists.

I still stand by that this is matchup specific, as I've never seen this happening vs OSs or Johnnies.

You'll notice that the nerfs to Eddie I suggested were in response to way less reasonable nerfs that other people are suggesting. I agree with you in that Eddie is not as much of a problem as he was before, due to the high skill ceiling on playing him, and the numerous matchup specific advantages other characters have come to enjoy over him in certain situations. I am not advocating nerfing Eddie.

I'm just saying that your 'nerfs' might not turn out the way you expect them to :D Like I keep saying, just remove the chipdamage and reduce meter fill, that alone is enough.

When comparing Bridget to everyone else in the way he enjoys the use of AC specific system mechanics and the useful(less)ness of his new moves? He's trash. Ruu or another super sick character specialist being good with him is not indicative of how good the character is. I agree that the character is very hard to play, and that Bridget's movement and ranged options give a lot of characters trouble on principle. The problem is screwing up one time and losing because you guessed right 20 times and Slayer, or Eddie, or Potemkin, or Jam, or May, etc etc guesses right once and negates all of that work.

I honestly think if he did a little more damage, he would be fine.

If the best performing player can show bridget to be balanced or overpowered, than he is balanced or overpowered. Averages don't exist when measuring character potential, the fact that only some people reach that potential just means the character is really hard to play, not that it is underpowered.

[destruction_adv]

No, now he has to hit his third unblockable. If you give him the quicker refill, he doesn't need to go for third unblockable because he can go back to mawaru loop straight away (which in terms of execution is much safer!).

I still stand by that this is matchup specific, as I've never seen this happening vs OSs or Johnnies.

I'm just saying that your 'nerfs' might not turn out the way you expect them to :D Like I keep saying, just remove the chipdamage and reduce meter fill, that alone is enough.

If the best performing player can show bridget to be balanced or overpowered, than he is balanced or overpowered. Averages don't exist when measuring character potential, the fact that only some people reach that potential just means the character is really hard to play, not that it is underpowered.

The meter gain idea is very interesting, because meter=options in GG, I can see that being a good way to balance him out. Also reduced meter gain might keep him from throwing out FB drills all the time as well (though I don't know how much you're thinking of reducing his meter gain).

[Dream Maker]

Reaver, you're reading it wrong nobody ever talked about giving any quicker refill to Eddie. Basically what AKA said is that FB drill should not hit low anymore and that puddle unblock should launch thus preventing another knockdown and meter regain during the post hole combo that exists today.

Totally agree with what AKA said BTW. Regarding Bridget, the character can do some OK damage but occasions for good setups are slim, hell it's like the only character in the game that has almost nothing else to do than a crappy air combo that has absolutely no chance of knocking down after any launcher. Bridget has some awesome setups and keepaway capabilities but even if you watch matches from beasts like Ruu it's not hard to understand that the character needs a lot more combos to win than any other in the game. It's like hit and run, hit and run 10 to 15 times a round...

Edited May 6, 2012 by Dream Maker

[reaVer]

Reaver, you're reading it wrong nobody ever talked about giving any quicker refill to Eddie. Basically what AKA said is that FB drill should not hit low anymore and that puddle unblock should launch thus preventing another knockdown and meter regain during the post hole combo that exists today.

No, I read it right and if you read properly you'd have seen I was responding correctly. Again, the meter fill mechanic itself wouldn't change, but because puddle would be a launch rather than a hold, little eddie would immediately dissappear triggering the meter refill. Meaning that during his combo, he'd get half or 3 quarters of little Eddie meter, add to that the blowback and the meter would be full by the time the opponent gets back into his face. As it is now on the other hand... little Eddie stays around during the entire unblockable combo triggering the meter refill only after the combo.

Totally agree with what AKA said BTW. Regarding Bridget, the character can do some OK damage but occasions for good setups are slim, hell it's like the only character in the game that has almost nothing else to do than a crappy air combo that has absolutely no chance of knocking down after any launcher. Bridget has some awesome setups and keepaway capabilities but even if you watch matches from beasts like Ruu it's not hard to understand that the character needs a lot more combos to win than any other in the game. It's like hit and run, hit and run 10 to 15 times a round...

Yes, that is how the character plays(or how Ruu plays the character), not how it is balanced...

Edited May 6, 2012 by reaVer

[Hellmonkey]

Regarding Bridget, the character can do some OK damage but occasions for good setups are slim, hell it's like the only character in the game that has almost nothing else to do than a crappy air combo that has absolutely no chance of knocking down after any launcher. Bridget has some awesome setups and keepaway capabilities but even if you watch matches from beasts like Ruu it's not hard to understand that the character needs a lot more combos to win than any other in the game. It's like hit and run, hit and run 10 to 15 times a round...

To understand why Bridget alone doesn't require a buff,the variation of characters in Guilty Gear must be understood. Every character plays differently, and has to aim for their specific good situations in each matchup. Because every character has such varied movement and moveset, the balance in Guilty Gear must be asymmetric. Bridget's playstyle is not getting up in your face and doing 80%. Instead, there are numerous other advantages that Bridget can enjoy over some characters like abusing good air movement for air throws or simply being able to escape a lot of situations with the extra air options. Bridget ends up having a more difficult learning curve to eek out what damage can be had, and must play a safe style to be most effective as a result.

I also don't think Ruu should be mentioned because he hasn't been around for a long time, there are Bridget players who have been playing for years since then who have mastered the character. This argument is like seeing Ogawa destroy everyone with Eddie without unblockables. This doesn't give us any information about GGAC Eddie's balance.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[axel]

IFAIK Ruu has been around since #R.

[M.Song]

IFAIK Ruu has been around since #R.

i think hellmonkey meant that ruu hasn't been playing for a few years of AC's lifespan

but he's been in quite a bit of the a-cho footage recently

[Hellmonkey]

Ah I wasn't aware he made a comeback, didn't get enough time in kansai either unfortunately. I'll try to find those videos but I still wouldn't rate Bridget just on his performance.

[Dream Maker]

Neither would I, but I think we can agree that exceptional players don't make a good reference as for which is balanced or not. My point was just as you said to show the optimal playstyle of the character. You think it compensates its flaws, I don't think so. IMO in a game that puts so much emphasis on heavy okizeme payoffs and where most characters do really huge damage having neither the damage nor the knockdown capability is problematic. It's not that its keepaway capabilities are overpowered either, they're strong but that's about it.

[Hellmonkey]

I would agree and say it doesn't compensate for his flaws, until you reach a high enough level. Seriously, you have not played against a good enough Bridget if you think this can't easily destroy most characters in the cast. Strong okizeme means nothing when you can't land a solid hit.

[M.Song]

with all this talk of ruu and bridget, i thought it was slightly relevant to mention that his team won the a-cho 5 on 5 tourney

results: http://www.a-cho.com/ac/201201_06/ggxx20120504.html

and there already appears to be some footage on their zero3japan account

hmm now that i think about it.... its kind of unfortunate that KVO was on the same weekend as this

Edited May 7, 2012 by M.Song

[Dream Maker]

Hellmonkey : Well I admit I didn't play Ruu or any other famous Bridget (or if I did I didn't even realize) however I already fought some pretty tough ones in Japanese arcades and that's definitely not a character I have much trouble to fight against even if Bridget players are rare and I lack experience against them. I got trashed at times against really strong players yes, it's not like I'm even a good player after all. But as a regular player in Japanese arcades I can tell you I never feel as helpless fighting Bridget as I can be against strong players of other characters like Ky, Dizzy or I-no for example and I'm not talking about famous guys here.

You're saying that I don't know how Bridget is strong because I didn't play the real strong guys. I could say the same for you, if you're only playing tougeki people when you are in Japan then you're likely to be overrating the strength of this character. If great or exceptional players like Ruu can indeed "easily destroy" other chars with uncatchable hit and run tactics it's far from being the case for most decent players.

Anyway I understand some people see this game as well balanced, yes it is to some extent, most chars are fine but some chars like Bridget have some glaring weaknesses while others are clearly overpowered. What really keeps the balance OK in this game is the wide array of options all chars have and the variety of defensive techniques and not so much the character's strengths in themselves. That's only my opinion and I wouldn't still be playing this game if I was really unsatisfied with the balance.

[reaVer]

I'm repeating myself here, but I really don't think you should balance according to the 'average' or 'decent' player. Balancing stuff according to casual gameplay will really hurt competition because they are two completely different mindsets(which in turn means two different games).

[Hellmonkey]

Hellmonkey : Well I admit I didn't play Ruu or any other famous Bridget (or if I did I didn't even realize) however I already fought some pretty tough ones in Japanese arcades and that's definitely not a character I have much trouble to fight against even if Bridget players are rare and I lack experience against them. I got trashed at times against really strong players yes, it's not like I'm even a good player after all. But as a regular player in Japanese arcades I can tell you I never feel as helpless fighting Bridget as I can be against strong players of other characters like Ky, Dizzy or I-no for example and I'm not talking about famous guys here.

You're saying that I don't know how Bridget is strong because I didn't play the real strong guys. I could say the same for you, if you're only playing tougeki people when you are in Japan then you're likely to be overrating the strength of this character. If great or exceptional players like Ruu can indeed "easily destroy" other chars with uncatchable hit and run tactics it's far from being the case for most decent players.

Anyway I understand some people see this game as well balanced, yes it is to some extent, most chars are fine but some chars like Bridget have some glaring weaknesses while others are clearly overpowered. What really keeps the balance OK in this game is the wide array of options all chars have and the variety of defensive techniques and not so much the character's strengths in themselves. That's only my opinion and I wouldn't still be playing this game if I was really unsatisfied with the balance.

All of the points I make about balance are very specifically tailored to high level play, because this is how we balance fighting games. I'm sorry if this wasn't clear. I think we are just talking about different games.

I'm not saying that your average Bridget player is likely to beat your average Eddie player, anyone with any amount of experience with the game knows that isn't true. I would still take a top Bridget player on my team against just about any character if something was riding on the line though, because Bridget has unique strengths that can be very tricky to play against and this can be as valuable as any amount of damage or okizeme potential when applied correctly.

I got to see a few very sick Bridget players during my time over there, who showed me a lot about the character I haven't seen in match videos anywhere. The nice thing about GGAC is that the skill cap is basically limitless. Bridget can be mastered like the rest of the cast.

I am also not saying that Bridget doesn't deserve some changes to make the character easier to play. However, a direct buff to something like Bridget's damage, just because this character appears to struggle to grab damage when that isn't even the character's playstyle, is how you end up with a terribly imbalanced game. It's wrong to single this character out as weak because no character has a mechanic like the yoyo to expand their options.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[Hecatom]

snip

snip

QFT

[Dream Maker]

Hellmonkey : Ok you made your point pretty clearly and I think I can agree with most if not all of what you said.

Still, something bugs me about taking top level players as a reference for balancing, particularly in this game. I mean most people in these forums just see videos of top level plays, some players like myself just got trashed by top level Japanese players sometimes without even understanding much of what happened, even rarer are the guys like you who received some direct insight from them. What I want to say is that all in all we're still strangers to this level of play as we cannot seriously compete in it. So how could we judge that whatever character is balanced from their point of view ? Why would they even bother making tier lists then ?

I mean to me that would be kinda like saying that Q is a balanced character in Street Fighter 3 3rd strike because some guys like Kuroda or TM manage to destroy almost everyone with him. Maybe you're right but that still feels weird to me. ^^

Not denying Bridget's strength in a team btw, but talking about this game in team play rather than in solo play is as much of a different story than talking about it at top level rather than average or medium-upper level.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Dream Maker

[Hecatom]

Hellmonkey : Ok you made your point pretty clearly and I think I can agree with most if not all of what you said.

Still, something bugs me about taking top level players as a reference for balancing, particularly in this game. I mean most people in these forums just see videos of top level plays, some players like myself just got trashed by top level Japanese players sometimes without even understanding much of what happened, even rarer are the guys like you who received some direct insight from them. What I want to say is that all in all we're still strangers to this level of play as we cannot seriously compete in it. So how could we judge that whatever character is balanced from their point of view ? Why would they even bother making tier lists then ?

I mean to me that would be kinda like saying that Q is a balanced character in Street Fighter 3 3rd strike because some guys like Kuroda or TM manage to destroy almost everyone with him. Maybe you're right but that still feels weird to me. ^^

Not denying Bridget's strength in a team btw, but talking about this game in team play rather than in solo play is as much of a different story than talking about it at top level rather than average or medium-upper level.

let me explain you this

how would you balance a game if not with the input of those who play the characters at their best potential?

this is truth for any competitive game

take for example BBCT, on the lowest to mid level of play, Tager was a player killer, yet despite that he had the most obvious flaws, having disadvantage against anyone, if you try to balance the game based on the opinion of the lowest denominator, tager would be made weaker

on the lowest to mid level of play, sentinel on mvc3 killed anyone, people cried for nerfs and capcom nerfed his health, something that he needed at highest level of play because any competent player can wreck his shit due his lack of mixup game, he cant open anyone easily, and is victim of a lot of shit because his size

you cant balance something based on the opinion of people who dont understand how the game or the characters are played

in order to have an educated opinion, you must need to know what are you talking about

otherwise you would have people calling for nerfs on stuff that gives people problems, despite being reasonable strategies around said "problems", or buffs on stuff that dont suit the charcater play style, or simply dont make sense

btw even when kuroda wrecks people with Q, you can see that he does not always win

hell he had to change to other characters (ken, akuma) in order to win sbo

high level play gives you the odds on how well do each character against each other

something that at lowest level play is 8:2 on high level can easily be 5:5, certainly you wouldnt want to change that, just because an average joe has problems on said matchup

btw, dont confuse high level play with exceptional players, they are not the same

killian once said that if you want to make a good sf game, listening to the casuals wouldnt lead you far

this is true for any fighting game

Edited May 8, 2012 by Hecatom

[Hellmonkey]

So how could we judge that whatever character is balanced from their point of view ? Why would they even bother making tier lists then ?

You bring up an interesting point which I recently discussed in the tier list thread, but to summarize it is well known at this point that it's impossible to accurately rank the characters in GGAC.

You can read the Japanese wiki for some thoughts about it, or read the ranking thread on the BBS, or try to find a bunch of top players around Japanese arcades to observe, but I'd like to save your time and tell you the results. Character affinity and player skill outweigh any mathematical difference between the characters in GGAC by such a large margin that it is impossible to distinguish a particularly weak or strong character in the cast.

For every argument you can make that a character is weak in one match-up, that exact mechanic can lead them to an advantage in another. We can only look at results to see who is really strongest in GGAC- and they have been all over the place through the evolution of the game, and will probably continue to do so because the game weighs so heavily on player skill and understanding.

I hope that you can understand this perspective, because the game is actually extremely balanced despite how much complaining goes on.

[Dream Maker]

Hecatom : You're right, what I'm saying though is that we have an insight on how top players are playing, not what they think about the game balance. That's a different thing.

I admit that I was wrong though about judging what nerf or what buff would be good for whatever character, that's still only my opinion and you guys demonstrated well why it wasn't relevant.

[Hecatom]

You bring up an interesting point which I recently discussed in the tier list thread, but to summarize it is well known at this point that it's impossible to accurately rank the characters in GGAC.

You can read the Japanese wiki for some thoughts about it, or read the ranking thread on the BBS, or try to find a bunch of top players around Japanese arcades to observe, but I'd like to save your time and tell you the results. Character affinity and player skill outweigh any mathematical difference between the characters in GGAC by such a large margin that it is impossible to distinguish a particularly weak or strong character in the cast.

For every argument you can make that a character is weak in one match-up, that exact mechanic can lead them to an advantage in another. We can only look at results to see who is really strongest in GGAC- and they have been all over the place through the evolution of the game, and will probably continue to do so because the game weighs so heavily on player skill and understanding.

I hope that you can understand this perspective, because the game is actually extremely balanced despite how much complaining goes on.

and this is precisely one of the things that i like the most about GG in general, every character has strong tools that help them to cover their weakness, plus there is no such thing as playing wrong the character because they are versatile enough that allows for player creativity between the context of the characters play style

those options make the game not only fun but very deep, and more importantly, balanced even when the cast is so varied

man, i fucking love GG

edit

while its basically imposible to rank characters, at least there is a consensus on who are the strongest and who are the weakest

how, strong, or how weak they are, is what is debatable

Hecatom : You're right, what I'm saying though is that we have an insight on how top players are playing, not what they think about the game balance. That's a different thing.

I admit that I was wrong though about judging what nerf or what buff would be good for whatever character, that's still only my opinion and you guys demonstrated well why it wasn't relevant.

its not that isnt relevant, its about that there is a lot of things that need to be taken in account when talking about balance, everyone wants their mains, or the perceived underdogs to be stronger, but not always the people know how it can be done in a coherent way, maybe because they dont have enough understanding of the game, or the character

add that not many people understands fg in general and you end with a lot of shit, this is why those kind of discussions are not allowed on dl, srk, etc

Edited May 8, 2012 by Hecatom

[Hellmonkey]

I admit that I was wrong though about judging what nerf or what buff would be good for whatever character, that's still only my opinion and you guys demonstrated well why it wasn't relevant.

Bridget was brought up in this thread as being particularly weak (more so than the other 'weak' characters), which you wrote that you agreed with. I just want to correct this notion that Bridget alone deserves attention, when in fact the character can manage quite well at a high level. I would love some balance changes for Bridget as long as it came as a package along with the rest of the cast.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[Star-Demon]

- Widen or push back Yousanzen FRC window.

- Baku -> D followup has more untechable time.

[Seku]

- Widen or push back Yousanzen FRC window.

- Baku -> D followup has more untechable time.

lol'd

Speaking about Bridget, I've always thought that Bridget among the cast of GG, is like... what GG is to other fighting games.