Hard Knock-Downs?

[Mint]

Kinda new to this genre of fighting game and was wondering if there was a true "Hard Knock-down" that can't be tech'ed much like a sweep or throw in street fighter. Just wondering cause the wakeup game when i'm playing is quite difficult to understand and it seems its possible to roll out no matter what string or combo is done. Thanks in advance!

[mAc Chaos]

There's no hard knock downs in this game, but you have ways to basically force the opponent to stay put.

For instance, certain moves will pick up rolling characters off the floor (or just hit them out of the roll) and let you combo. So, if you knock them down, and they try to roll away, you could use that move and start a whole new combo until they decide to stop giving you free hits and just tech up in place.

Basically, it's kind of a guessing game, but you want to train your opponent to tech the way you want them to.

Actually, there are SOME moves that basically do that, but they're exceptions. Tager's Gadget Finger and Ragna's 22C both immobilize the opponent and force them to have a SF style wakeup.

Edited May 30, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[Mint]

Thanks so much, and by chance is there a limit on how long they can stay on the floor without tech'ing? I've had a few experiences where they just lay on the ground for a LONG time after i finish a combo

[mAc Chaos]

I don't remember the exact time, but if they stay too long, you can just hit them and start a brand new combo.

Instead of just continuing the combo past the point where it's useful, just pause for a moment so the combo counter can reset, and then start a new one. If that happens enough they should start teching to avoid it, and if they don't you can just keep comboing them. The timing can be tricky though.

Edited May 30, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[Mint]

Could that be done with any attack that has the ground hit property and does it reset the scaling/combo counter?

[mAc Chaos]

Yes to both. (Well, any move that would reach them on the ground.) You just want to use a move that can lead to a good combo, although you don't always have that luxury. If you just jab them once or something, it's not really going to scare them off from their tactic.

[Mint]

Thanks so much man, coming from playing a game where a lot of characters are based off of hard knockdown setups it was really weird to get used to the wakeup system in blazblue and how to mixup on wakeup but now i guess i understand it a little better

[mAc Chaos]

No problem. Which character do you play?

[Mint]

i play platinum the trinity lol but i would like to play a heavier mixup oriented character

[YukiBlue]

If you want heavy mixup consider Valkeyhayn, Bang or Carl if you want seriously "Nasty" Mixups such as unblockables and "Invisible" resets.

Try Bang, though. His 2A is great for punishing people that delay tech.

[Fluck]

Platinum actually has fairly good mixup with the right setups and execution and she has the ability to stop people from rolling thanks to what is known as 'Bubble Oki', so she's not that far off from what you're looking for. However, be aware that most of her power comes in the corner and she's one of, if not the, weakest characters in the game midscreen.

Also one tip I have is that when you hit people off the ground, don't just do like 2B. Do 2B 5C or whatever your next move as well, if you land a hit you'll gatling automatically and get your combo, if you don't (because they teched) you don't cancel into the next move.

[Mint]

Wait... there are unblockables in this game? And 'bubble oki' is using the bubble after a combo as a meaty to catch opponents tech rolling right? I tried to apply that to my mixup game but its feels kinda weird to do a move as slow as that as a meaty and i feel it could be easily reversal'd but i'm not too sure about that as i don't really have enough experience to say thanks so much for the advice though!

[Fluck]

There are no true unblockables but Carl has an 'unblockable' set-up that is so hard to block that it might as well be unblockable.

I am not too familiar with Platinum so you might want to start heading over to the Platinum boards and ask but I imagine bubble oki is done only after an ender that has a lot of untechable time such that you have enough time to do it safely.

[Airk]

There are no true unblockables but Carl has an 'unblockable' set-up that is so hard to block that it might as well be unblockable.

This is not true; Several characters have true unblockables - but they generally all require charge time to set up. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are Jin 623D[Hold], Hakumen's Shippu[Hold] and Tsubaki's 22D[Hold]; All of which require a significant amount of hold time before they become truly unblockable, but once they get to that point, they are truly unblockable - by which we mean "there is no way you can block them". :P I believe Arakune also has a Carl-style pseudo unblockable involving the bell bug and any low hit.

I am not too familiar with Platinum so you might want to start heading over to the Platinum boards and ask but I imagine bubble oki is done only after an ender that has a lot of untechable time such that you have enough time to do it safely.

It's not THAT slow; It's 48 frames long, only 28 of which are startup, and most tech options take 30 frames to complete anyway. So unless you perform a knockdown that lets your opponent act practically before you do, bubble oki is acceptable. Now, admittedly, there are situations in which it's not appropriate, including any kind of air combo ender, and it may not be valid midscreen because people can backroll out of the way, but in the corner, at least, it still seems quite viable, depending on what combo ender you go for.

Almost all characters have combo enders that will allow for punishing of roll techs.

[YukiBlue]

I think he mean't unblockable mixups. When Carl has you in a sammich his mixup becomes gdlk.

[Fluck]

Ah right, my mistake, those unblockables slipped my mind. I was thinking of unblockable setups.

I've seen lots of Plat combos end in Mami Circular with lots of repeat proration (for the heat), which is why I think bubble oki may not be valid depending on the combo. You'd need to check this with the Plat boards really.

[YukiBlue]

Platinum has pretty sub-par mixup if you ask me. Mami adds a new dimension, but whilst playing Bang for a year I found that 2D blows it up so hard, gets me 4 seals into FRKZ then I win.

I forgot FRKZ, that mixup may aswel be unblockable. Literally everything he does is a 50/50

[destruction_adv]

Platinum has pretty sub-par mixup if you ask me. Mami adds a new dimension, but whilst playing Bang for a year I found that 2D blows it up so hard, gets me 4 seals into FRKZ then I win.

I forgot FRKZ, that mixup may aswel be unblockable. Literally everything he does is a 50/50

Who pressures with Mami? The only guy I remember who did switched to Litchi when I disrepected Plat's pressure with 2D all the time.

I do disagree with Platinum's mix-up being sub par though. I have a lot of expirence with the match up with Bang, so I can escape it easily, but I sometimes weep manly tears for those who don't.

[Rhiya]

Purachina's mixup is fine, TK Swallow Moon shit is brutal

The problem is making them respect it

[Justice7541]

Who pressures with Mami? The only guy I remember who did switched to Litchi when I disrepected Plat's pressure with 2D all the time.

I do disagree with Platinum's mix-up being sub par though. I have a lot of expirence with the match up with Bang, so I can escape it easily, but I sometimes weep manly tears for those who don't.

Platinum's mixup is decent and her stagger is quite strong. She has 6B overhead, Mami RC crossup, that stupid cloud high/low, etc. To be fair I haven't been playing this game that much but characters who don't have good reversals (see: Relius) get run over all day.

Also for Platinum, if the opponent doesn't tech you can just spam her 22A (?) and that'll take off a ton since it's fixed damage. Usually that won't happen precisely for that reason though.

[destruction_adv]

Platinum's mixup is decent and her stagger is quite strong. She has 6B overhead, Mami RC crossup, that stupid cloud high/low, etc. To be fair I haven't been playing this game that much but characters who don't have good reversals (see: Relius) get run over all day.

Also for Platinum, if the opponent doesn't tech you can just spam her 22A (?) and that'll take off a ton since it's fixed damage. Usually that won't happen precisely for that reason though.

While her mix-up is pretty good, you have to make them respect that mix-up before you really do anything. I'd argue Bang is better, but I just realized this isn't a debate who's mix-up is better thread.

[Manta]

When it comes to talking about blazblue, "Hard knockdown" usually refers to a knockdown that cannot be emergency rolled (Bounce teched), and are usually used as part of combos as well as to end them. If you hit a hard-knocked down character before they have a chance to get up, it's a legit red combo, if you wait a bit longer, it's blue, if you wait longer still, it's a red reset. Generally speaking, most players will tech neutrally after a knockdown since it's the safest option, especially in the corner.

Similarly, you can sort of force oki with soft (techable) knockdowns. This is when you do a soft knockdown where, if they choose not to tech as they land, you can guarantee a followup because you hit them off the ground before they can do a wakeup tech. This basically means that they're forced to do a bounce tech to avoid further damage, giving you all of the options of a SF oki.